DCP EP. 102 Is Monogamy Still The Move? Cheri’ “Calico” Roman and Chaneé Kendall Jackson
Transcribed by: Sydney Henriques-Payne
Completion date: Feb 9, 2022
Gerren Keith Gaynor: [00:00:03] Welcome to Dear Culture, the podcast that gives you news you can trust for the culture. I’m your co-host, Gerren Keith Gaynor, managing editor of Politics and Washington Correspondent at The Grio, [00:00:13][9.8]
Shana Pinnock: [00:00:13] and I’m your co-host Shana Pinnock, social media director here at The Grio. And this week we’re asking Dear Csulture, is monogamy still the move? [00:00:21][7.6]
Gerren Keith Gaynor: [00:00:30] Valentine’s Day is days away, and on today’s show, we’re talking about relationships and a Black love. But and true Dear Culture fashion, we’re switching things up and thinking outside of the proverbial box of chocolates. [00:00:42][12.6]
Shana Pinnock: [00:00:43] I mean, you know, they say, you never know what you’re going to get and love is like that too, for sure. You know, we all know love is love and it comes in all shapes and sizes. And there’s no telling when or where Cupid’s Arrow may strike. But can it strike more than once? And if it does, can we still do right by the people or person that we have love for? Our guests today will walk us through what it’s like to consider consensual non-monogamy in all its forms. [00:01:09][26.2]
Gerren Keith Gaynor: [00:01:10] Our first guest, Chanee’ Jackson Kendall, is a Black polyamorous educator, activist and event planner. She has openly identified as polyamorous for more than a decade. She also Coplanned Black Poly Pride, a celebration of the Black polyamorous love-style. She currently lives with her partners and co-parents in a western Atlanta suburb. [00:01:33][22.5]
Shana Pinnock: [00:01:33] And our second guests, Cheri’ Calico Roman is a Black polyamorous educator and community organizer who co-founded the Poly Cultural Diversity Alliance and its cornerstone event. Black. Poly Pride she has identified as queer and non-monogamous since the age of 12, and Cheri’ grew up in a community where plural relationships were rooted in marriage and religion. Later, separating her relational preferences from religious dogma, she quickly became well-known for her candid commentary on the self journey that is at the root of polyamory. Her life is enriched by relationships with her polycule, which we’ll talk more about with her on today’s show. Chanee’ and Cheri’. Welcome to dear culture. [00:02:21][47.3]
Chanee Kendall Jackson: [00:02:22] Thank you so much for the warm welcome. [00:02:23][1.3]
Cheri Calico Roman: [00:02:24] Thank you for having us. [00:02:26][1.3]
Gerren Keith Gaynor: [00:02:26] Yes, welcome. So I want to make sure we clear something up. You know language really matters. And for our listeners, I want to be sure that they understand that we’re talking about polyamory, but also people get polyamory and polygamy confused. There is a difference. So let’s start here. How do we define polyamory and what is the difference between polyamory and polygamy? [00:02:48][22.1]
Chanee Kendall Jackson: [00:02:49] I’ll jump in on that. So polyamory is the practice or willingness to participate in multiple committed relationships with the full consent of all involved. [00:03:00][10.4]
Shana Pinnock: [00:03:01] Multiple committed. All right, girl, alright! [00:03:02][1.6]
Cheri Calico Roman: [00:03:06] I also feel like that separates from polygamy because polygamy is typically rooted in marriage and polyamory is not. [00:03:13][7.6]
Shana Pinnock: [00:03:13] OK! [00:03:13][0.0]
Chanee Kendall Jackson: [00:03:16] And it’s also important to note that polygamy is a very frequently represent in our culture as something where a man has multiple wives. Polyamory is rooted in womanist theory in the idea that we all have an equal right to choose our relationships for ourselves. [00:03:33][16.7]
Gerren Keith Gaynor: [00:03:34] Got it! So essentially… So essentially, we’re saying that consent is required for either polygamy or polyamory by all parties involved because otherwise, if is if there’s no consent is just cheating. [00:03:47][13.5]
Shana Pinnock: [00:03:48] Hoing, it’s what it is. [00:03:49][1.4]
Cheri Calico Roman: [00:03:52] Oh yes. Consent and transparency. I think those two work in tandem when it comes to polyamory because you do have other relational styles like open relationships or “don’t ask, don’t tell” that kind of fall under the umbrella, but aren’t exactly polyamory just because of their foundational elements. [00:04:11][19.2]
Chanee Kendall Jackson: [00:04:12] Right? So the overarching umbrella, then, would be non-monogamy versus monogamy under the umbrella of non-monogamy. You may have swingers, you may have people in open relationships, but we’re particularly talking about polyamory. [00:04:26][13.3]
Gerren Keith Gaynor: [00:04:27] So going. So just to be clear, anyone who who is polygamous, they are practicing polyamory, but not all people who are polyamorous, who polyamorous are engaged in polygamy. [00:04:38][11.5]
Chanee Kendall Jackson: [00:04:39] No. So anyone who is non-monogamous has more than one partner. If you’re consensually non-monogamous, then everyone knows about it. If you’re polyamorous specifically, then all people in the relationship have equal access to have their own relationships with the full consent of all involved. So it’s it’s a it’s about levels of consent, transparency and access. [00:05:05][26.1]
Gerren Keith Gaynor: [00:05:07] Got it. Got it. [00:05:07][0.9]
Shana Pinnock: [00:05:08] Listen, and first off, we just we just have to acknowledge I love the fact that first off is debt to the patriarchy. So the fact that you said that it is rooted in woman is ideology. And because of it, there’s all these layers of transparency that sounds like women. OK, we just do it better. Cool. So. I I’m really interested in like getting a bit deeper into understanding as to like why people would choose a polyamorous lifestyle because I’m going to be fully transparent with the ladies. I don’t believe in poly. Nothing. All right. We is me, you and S.E.. All right now. And I mean, it’s so funny because there are so many more polyamory is more popular than one would think, right? So let’s just go with some stats, according to a 2021 Newsweek report. One in nine Americans have been in a polyamorous relationship and one in six would like to try one. Around 30 to 40 percent of Americans cheat on their partner, so I’m guessing they’re thinking that this is a little easier way to get around that. And let’s also be very, you know, all inclusive for our listeners. This includes Black folks. I know a lot of the times we think in polyamory is just some white mess. It isn’t that OK? White people tend to be on the face of polyamory, but the German Journal of Psychology reports that people of color are just as likely to engage in consensual non-monogamy. So again, and this is for both of you, ladies, because I would love to hear from both of you on this question. Why do each of you choose to live a polyamorous lifestyle? And you know, why did you find? Why did you found Black poly pride? What was the purpose of that? Shari, let’s start with you. [00:06:54][105.8]
Cheri Calico Roman: [00:06:55] Well, for me, I believe that polyamory is not only a love style, but it’s also a socio political stance. It asserts the notion that women do have the same relational rights as men. And for me, that was really important as a foundation to loving relationships. And this is a question that I’ve been pondering a lot recently, especially since the pandemic. You know, we are recognizing a need for interdependent relationships and community, and I do believe that my polyamory is a foundational cornerstone of my community. My polyamory polyamorous relationships extend beyond those that are romantic. They also recognize platonic partnerships, co-parenting relationships, and it’s just a more expansive style of relating to me that allows for the totality of my identities to be present and my loving relationships [00:07:53][57.5]
Chanee Kendall Jackson: [00:07:55] to add… To add to that and to speak for myself, personally. I reject the idea that monogamy is a choice. Monogamy is just a function of capitalism, really. Monogamy is something that is instituted by capitalism to limit how much we’re able to accomplish, right? If you can only have one partner, that means it’s only two incomes in the household. If you can only have one partner, then that means it’s only two people to raise a child. And so I choose polyamory because I have a choice. And just like monogamy is a valid choice for anyone. Polyamory then too, is a valid choice for me because I choose to be expansive and have more light, more love in my life, instead of limiting the ways and people that I’m able to show love to and build and enjoy my life with. [00:08:42][47.5]
Shana Pinnock: [00:08:43] All right outside the box. I love it. [00:08:45][1.6]
Gerren Keith Gaynor: [00:08:47] We are getting pretty deep here. I’m loving this. So to do a deeper dive into this conversation, let’s talk about the vocabulary because our producers gave us a list of vocabulary. You have kind of touched on some of these terminologies. There is solo poly folks. They are as the triads there are the vees, zees vs these polycules. Kitchen table poly. Don’t ask, don’t tell poly. That’s a lot of terminology. So let’s talk about the structures. Cheri let’s start with you. Can you share a bit more about the different types of structures and the poly world? And what structure or structures do you currently participate in? [00:09:27][40.0]
Cheri Calico Roman: [00:09:27] Absolutely. So we can call them structures or a dynamic choices, and you have. I think the one that’s most represented is the triad, right, where you have three partners and typically there is one man and two women. And that’s what we mostly see represented in the media. But I love polyamory because it does go well beyond that. You also have an open v where you have one partner who is a Hinge partner who may have two auxiliary partners. You have kitchen table poly, where that means that all of my partners would be comfortable to come over at the house and sit down at a kitchen table together, whether be it, they in a relationship together or not. Right. We call my partners partner would be my meta. So we are not in a romantic relationship together, but I recognize the relationship that they have with one of my partners. Me specifically, I have an expansive polycule, we are all in a relationship together. So I do have five partners. We operate within a group dynamic and I also have metas, you know, some of all of my partners, we are open. And so we do not have a closed dynamic meaning that we are able to function outside of our polycule and establish other loving relationships with other people. And that’s what I participate in currently. [00:10:58][90.3]
Chanee Kendall Jackson: [00:10:59] And so, so for me, I think it’s important to kind of speak to the fact that solo polyamory is a thing. And what solo polyamory means is that I choose not me particularly, but solo polyamorous choose to live their life without enmeshment, so without sharing finances, without sharing a home. But they do choose to share their life romantically with other people. So that’s another very valid form of polyamory that is not often represent it, probably just because it’s not as spicy. You know, it doesn’t. It’s not. It doesn’t have the wow factor, but it’s out there. Personally, for me, my partners and I operate within a family dynamic that is most often referred to as like kitchen table polyamory, wherein we are so open and able to take partners as we wish. But we operate cooperatively to live our lives and raise our child. [00:11:51][52.1]
Shana Pinnock: [00:11:51] OK, listen, y’all are blowing my mind right now, OK? And I just want to make sure I’m understanding because I know a few folks in polyamorous relationships and I’ve heard them kind of refer to their terms of like primary partners, which would then imply that they’re like our secondary or tertiary partners, et cetera, et cetera. So I’m wondering. And Chanee’ I’d love for you to answer this question first. For polyamorous couples or group relationships, vees, zees and other structures across all all the alphabet, are they all hierarchical? And like, what type of structures have you participated in that worked really well for you? Because again, I’m this this, y’all, y’all. Y’all could blow my mind right now. [00:12:42][51.1]
Chanee Kendall Jackson: [00:12:43] OK, so some polyamorous relationships are hierarchical, which means that they may have a primary partner, someone with whom they have chosen to build a life. So they may have the typical trappings of monogamy. They may be married, they may share a home, they may miss their finances, and then they also have other partners to which their life is not as enmeshed. They may have, you know, they may share some things, but they don’t have all those interwoven pieces. I think one of the myths of polyamory is that most are all polyamorous relationships are set up in this way, and it’s not. I find that most people when entering polyamory go for a hierarchical dynamic because it feels safer. And I would I would refer to hierarchical dynamics as polyamorous training wheels. Generally, what happens as people grow and evolve is that they realize that love is not something that can be legislated [00:13:40][56.6]
Shana Pinnock: [00:13:43] out for our listeners. A. Y’all need to be catching up on catching up with this on on YouTube, because my face right now is like, OK, all right. [00:13:53][9.5]
Gerren Keith Gaynor: [00:13:54] Educate me about speaking up. [00:13:56][2.7]
Chanee Kendall Jackson: [00:13:57] But I was just going to say that one of the important things to also keep in mind is that all of the safeguards that we think monogamy provides are not real, right? So people get people get married, right? And you think that’s secure, but $600 in two signatures as a divorce, right? So what’s that? There’s no there’s no security in monogamy. It’s all this concept and this idea that if we only have one partner, we’re somehow more secure than if we’re open to having multiple partners, do you? [00:14:26][29.9]
Shana Pinnock: [00:14:27] So here’s a random question. I’m sorry. Sorry, go ahead. [00:14:29][2.3]
Cheri Calico Roman: [00:14:30] I was just going to say I do think it’s important to recognize that there is a difference between prescriptive and descriptive hierarchy in relationships and sometimes that the hierarchy does just inherently happen. We still live in sort of a society that is dictated largely by monogamy. And so sometimes that can happen by just by happenstance, whereas then you do have to marry partners who are tied to this contract that they entered into, but then they find polyamory and they decide to live outside of that indoctrination. And so I really do think that is sometimes a personal choice, and it’s really on a case by case basis and something that partner should discuss whenever they’re entering into a relationship together. [00:15:10][40.2]
Shana Pinnock: [00:15:11] Gotcha. And so, so Chanee’, like you mentioned there, you know, there are a lot of us who are under the impression that there’s a certain amount of security that comes with just having a… I mean, I can speak for myself. I’m like, I know there’s no security in that. I have seen my marriage. Your friends be unmarried, conscious uncoupling very quickly. So I guess my question to you is, what is that security that you’re getting from a polyamorous type of situation? [00:15:39][27.7]
Chanee Kendall Jackson: [00:15:40] Well, I will say it’s important for me to know that I am married, right? And I was polyamorous when I got married, so we intentionally entered into a marriage knowing that we would, that we were polyamorous and would continue to practice polyamory. So marriage is essentially a legal contract. It provides protections for both parties, right? And then everything else outside of that legal contract is really up for the two parties to discuss, right? It’s up to us to decide how we will operate our marriage and what things we will agree to do together and what things we are going to share with other people. So I think that there’s a lot of intentionality involved in polyamory that’s not present in traditional monogamous relationships because I think that we just do what everyone else does. We just kind of do what’s prescribed to us, like we call it the relationship escalator. Right. So relationships follow the set you meet. You fall in love. You move in together. You get married. You have a baby like. And this is how it goes. And so what I’m encouraging more Black people, especially young Black people, to do is to interrogate whether that actually worked and whether that’s working for you. Whether waiting around for all these things to happen before you pursue your life is something that’s actually beneficial. [00:16:58][77.7]
Gerren Keith Gaynor: [00:17:00] And so I want to talk about the difference between some relationships don’t always have, don’t always involve sex. And I think that love and sex can be conflated, but with or without sex or relationships can get messy and sometimes even complicated. And so I would love to hear from you both on this question on what are some common norms or boundaries that you use to support a healthy, honest relationship. And if you’ve ever experienced jealousy or a partner who was jealous, how did you manage that? [00:17:33][33.8]
Cheri Calico Roman: [00:17:35] Oh, well, one. I definitely think it’s important to know the difference between boundaries and rules because boundaries are for me and my own self-governance. And so for me, I think that boundaries that I have in place typically surround what are our ethical, foundational elements of this relationship that we are adhering to? And we’re agreeing, to be honest, we are agreeing to be transparent. We are agreeing to give each other space and room to practice and participate fully in polyamory. And those are some of my foundational boundaries that I have set in place in my relationships and therefore my own self-governance. Like I say, if someone is imposing upon my ability to participate in a relationship that has those values at the root of it, I then have to pull back on myself and say, OK, how am I going to pivot this relationship? Or is it time for me to exit this relationship as far as jealousy goes? I believe that jealousy is a valid emotion. And oftentimes it is a flag for us to check in with ourselves because jealousy is an emotion. Yes, but what’s at the root of that jealousy? What’s happening for me that is causing me to experience this emotion? Is it? I’m seeing my partner go out on their first date with a new person and they’re all excited and they’re experiencing this new relationship energy that has them all shiny and glowy and giddy. And we haven’t been out on a date in four weeks or, you know, two months, whatever it may be. And I’m feeling jealous about that is my jealousy surrounding my partner or the experiencing. They’re having their experience, they’re having. Not necessarily. It’s more so about the relationship that we are engaging in, and perhaps we’ve been neglecting parts of our relationship and that’s what I want to bring to the table. And so having a safe place for communication about these emotions and not having to suppress them and saying, “Hey, I’m feeling really jealous right now and you don’t own that right? These are my emotions, and I’m taking accountability for them. But I am looking for you to participate in helping me manage these emotions.” I’ve processed them on my own. I’ve come to the conclusion that this is what’s at the root of my jealousy. What can we do together to absolve this right? I’ve done my personal work. So I definitely think polyamory causes us to be more reflective about owning our emotions. Which emotions belong to us. Right. What’s our work to be done in processing those and then working in tandem with our partners to be expressive about those emotions and to be solution oriented in our relationships moving forward? [00:20:39][183.5]
Chanee Kendall Jackson: [00:20:39] And I would say that that I’m glad that Cheri made that distinction between rules and boundaries because a lot of people, when entering into non-monogamy, they think that rules will save them. Right. And so we really it’s there’s so much self work to be done in polyamory, right? To talk about what I’m going to do, how I’m going to conduct myself. And so as an example, one of the the overarching ideas that I have for myself is to keep my eyes on my own paper, right? And one of the things that that links to your question about jealousy because I find if my eyes are on my own paper, if I’m worried about my relationship, if I’m worried about things that affects me, if I minded my business, then I don’t have. I’m not worried about what’s going on somebody else’s relationship. And so when jealousy occurs for me personally, like Cheri’ says, it’s often a reminder that you’re perhaps not getting a need met. Because if I’m eating, I’m not mad somebody else is eating. But if I’m hungry and somebody else is over there eating crab legs, it’s going to be a whole problem. So that’s, you know, that’s what it becomes about yourself. And are you actively and proactively advocating for yourself to get your needs met? [00:21:58][78.9]
Shana Pinnock: [00:21:59] Yeah. And it’s so crazy. I think there’s a… There’s a deep level of maturity and self-realization that has to take place if you’re going to embark on a journey like this and it’s I’m so glad that you are. I think it shouldn’t. Chanee’ you were the one who said it like, you know, there’s certain aspects of polyamory that aren’t shown in the media or aren’t talked about in the media because it’s not as sexy. And you know, being able to be honest about your feelings and like, No, let’s get into it is is that’s not the sexy part. [00:22:33][33.9]
Cheri Calico Roman: [00:22:34] And I think it’s really interesting that we look at these things and think of them as things that we need for polyamorous relating because really, these are things that work or should be happening in monogamous relationships as well. They’re just not. And so I always question like, why are monogamous people not doing this? Why are these things that we’re not being taught, right? Why is this so apposite of our conditioning? We’re so conditioned to repress our feelings, to not communicate, to not identify who we are in relationship with other people. These are things that I think that you can utilize in every relationship style. Whatever that choice of relating may be, these are important pillars. [00:23:16][42.0]
Chanee Kendall Jackson: [00:23:17] And and for me, to be clear, that’s one of the reasons I choose polyamory because monogamous people are not doing that self work. There’s a lot of assumptions about how things will go. Assumptions about things I will provide for you. Things I will do for you. And I prefer to have those conversations and negotiate my relationships and do not hold me accountable for anything I haven’t agreed [00:23:38][21.3]
Shana Pinnock: [00:23:39] That’s deep. And you know, I’ve said late polyamory is not necessarily for me, mainly because I’m lazy. I don’t feel like having to engage multiple people. But one thing I do acknowledge in terms of monogamy in that I think I admire so much about polyamory, is there’s this idea, and I don’t know if this is a patriarchal thing, if this is a capitalist thing of. You are supposed to be someone’s everything. If you have like a singular partner and that to me has been insane, I don’t I don’t need my man to be everything for me. I don’t need you to be my, my best friend, my therapist like any of that. So I I love the fact that there is this level of communication and deep, deep honesty within self and with with your partners. That is absolutely necessary for polyamorous relationships. So kudos to like y’all, y’all [are] the goats right now, in my opinion. But this is our last question for you. For all the folks, especially young Black folks who are interested in learning more about polyamory but might be hesitant might be, you know, still sticking to social societal norms. What guidance would you give them or what resources might you suggest they check out to learn about more change? Let’s start with you. [00:25:02][83.0]
Chanee Kendall Jackson: [00:25:03] OK, so that’s a hard question. And the reason why that’s a hard question is because polyamory is a deeply it’s like we talked about it’s a work of self and you learn so much about polyamory through engaging in it. So I think the best thing I can encourage people who are interested in polyamory to do is to actually find real polyamorous people and talk to them. The internet is an amazing place to do that. Find communities, both online communities. And you know, what’s corona isn’t ravaging our life like in real life communities where you can talk to people associate with people, have real life examples of how polyamory is working and can work in your life. And I think that the other thing I would ask people to do before engaging a non-monogamy in any way is to go ahead and do some of that self work. Know who you are. Know what your flaws are. Know what your strengths are. Be. Become familiar with what you are looking for out of a relationship and really focus on being a good partner. Because if you can’t be a good partner to one person, you sure as hell can be a good partner to more than one. [00:26:09][66.6]
Cheri Calico Roman: [00:26:10] So I think it’s really important to, like Chanee said, going that self journey. Discover who you are as a partner and learn about love. I definitely think that we think about polyamory as something separate almost from love and intimacy, but really fortifying what that means for you. And I always say definitely reading all about life, by love, by bell hooks, because it flips a lot of the notions about love, traditional love anyway on its head. And there has never been a better time to identify as non-monogamous or polyamorous than right now. There’s so much information out there, and it’s really important to separate the information that you’re giving getting right because you can have polyamorous theories. And then there’s a polyamorous reality and practice that you will be living. So be careful about the information in the intake that you’re getting. There are so many wonderful people online on Instagram that you can follow us at Black Poly Pride were oftentimes sharing these platforms on our own just to get their voice and their messages out there. And you can follow these people, follow their journey, but making sure that you personalize your own. [00:27:31][80.4]
Gerren Keith Gaynor: [00:27:32] Well, Chanee’ And Cheri’, thank you so much. It’s been such a pleasure having you on Dear Culture. I say this often, but I try to lead with love in every facet of my life and really look through everything through a lens of love. And this is such an important reminder that people are not possessions that they are humans and deserve to be loved and to love and whatever structure that looks like for them. If you want to learn more about Chanee, Kendall Jackson and Cheri Calico Roman. You can follow them on Instagram at work with Chanee (@WorkwithChanee) and Cheri’ Calico (@CheriCalico). You can also visit Black Poly Pride’s website at WW W Dot Black Poly Pride dot com. That’s Black Poly Pride dot com. And of course, for more news and commentary on the culture, visit the Grio’s website at w WWW dot theGrio dot com and followed Dear Culture on Instagram at Dear Culture Pod. [00:28:30][58.7]
Shana Pinnock: [00:28:39] We want to remind our listeners to support your local Black businesses and donate to your local organizations and religious institutions. The business that we will highlight this week is Exquisite Elite Matchmaking. Exquisite Elite Matchmaking is a Houston based, Black owned matchmaking company founded by Karen Davis, a certified dating coach and matchmaker with a romantic heart. Karen founded the company to support busy professionals looking for a quality match that they both desire and deserve. With the goal of increasing the marriage rate in her community to learn more about exquisite elite matchmaking. Visit their website at Exquisite Elite Match.com. That’s ex q u i s i t e l i t e match dot com. [00:29:22][43.0]
Gerren Keith Gaynor: [00:29:24] Thank you for listening to Dear Culture, if you like what you heard, please give us a five star review. Subscribe to the show wherever you listen to your podcasts and share it with everyone you know, [00:29:33][8.1]
Shana Pinnock: [00:29:33] and please email all questions, suggestions and compliments. We love those two podcasts at the Grill dot com. The Dear Culture podcast is brought to you by The Grio and co-produced by Taji Senior, Sydney Henriques-Payne and Abdul Quddas. [00:29:33][0.0]
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