The Blackest Questions

Investing in Black leaders with Dillard University President Walter Kimbrough

Episode 34
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Dillard University President Walter Kimbrough joins The Blackest Questions to talk about the significance of HBCUs, Black leaders, and Black Greek life. The topic of cannabis and minority-owned startups is also a highlight of this thoughtful conversation.

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Panama Jackson [00:00:00] You are now listening to theGrio’s Black Podcast Network Black Culture Amplified.

Dr. Christina Greer [00:00:06] Hi, and welcome to the Blackest Questions. I’m your host, Doctor Christina Greer, politics editor for theGrio and associate professor of political science at Fordham University. In this podcast, we ask our guest five of the Blackest questions so we can learn a little bit more about them and have some fun while we’re doing it. We’re also going to learn a lot about Black history past and present. So here’s how this works. We have five rounds of questions about us. Black history, the entire diaspora, current events, you name it. And with each round, the questions get a little tougher and the guest has 10 seconds to get it right. If they answer the question correctly, they’ll receive one symbolic Black fist and they’ll hear this. And if they get it wrong, they’ll hear this. But we still have them anyway. And after the five questions, they’ll be a Black bonus round at the end. Just for fun, I like to call that Black lightning.

Dr. Christina Greer [00:00:54] Our guest for this episode is Dr. Walter Kimbrough. At the age of 37, Walter was named the 12th president of Philander Smith College, and in 2012 he became the seventh president of Dillard University in New Orleans, Louisiana. Walter has been recognized for his research and writings on HBCU use and African American men in college. Recently, he’s emerged as one of the leaders discussing free speech on college campuses. Walter’s also been noted for his active use on social media, and he was cited by Education Drive as one of ten college presidents on Twitter who are doing it right. And you can find him @hiphopprez, and that’s Prez with a Z. And in 2015, he was named by the bestschools.org as one of the 20 most interesting college presidents. In 2020, he was named by College Cliffs as one of 50 top U.S. college and university presidents. Dr. Kimbrough has forged a national reputation as an expert on fraternities and sororities with specific expertise regarding historically Black, Latin and Asian groups. He’s the author of the book Black Greek 101 The Culture, Customs and Challenges of Black Fraternities and Sororities, and has served as an expert witness in a number of hazing cases. Walter presently serves as the interim executive director of the Black Men’s Research Institute at Morehouse College and will bring a multitude of his experience and background to the university. Hello, Dr. Kimbrough. Thank you so much for joining us at the Blackest Questions.

Dr. Walter Kimbrough [00:02:19] Thank you. I appreciate it.

Dr. Christina Greer [00:02:20] I’m really excited. You know, I have always been so in awe of people who decide to take on the realm of a university. As a college professor. I look at the role of the president as, you know, sort of like LBJ said, you know, when they were talking about mayors, he’s like, you know, life could be worse. I could be the mayor of the city. I feel like a college president is like being a mayor. You were literally putting out fires 28 hours a day. How and why did you decide that this is the route that you want to take to essentially, you know, bring these HBCUs into the 21st Century, fundraise and do all the things to say nothing of, you know, cultivating young minds. How and why did you decide to dip your toe in that that treacherous ocean?

Dr. Walter Kimbrough [00:03:12] Yeah, you know, it’s just something that developed. Growing up I wanted to be a veterinarian and actually got into vet school early at the University of Georgia. So I did three years of undergrad, gotten to vet school early, and then realized after the first few weeks like, Oh, no, I don’t want to do this. This isn’t it went by like I thought, I’m staying up all night long trying to go from small animal to large animals like, no. So at the time, though, I was still very active in my fraternity as an undergraduate, and I had a chance to talk to Walter Washington, who was a President Alcorn State. And I sort of looked to him and said, You know what, I think I might want to be a college president. Now it’s interesting, too, because I’m here at Morehouse, and Benjamin Mays was a legendary president here. And I went to Benjamin Mays High School in Atlanta. So I’ve had this sort of army to say, you know, about Benjamin Mays growing up in Atlanta. So I think all of that led to this for me to serve as a president for almost 18 years. And so I’ve had a full career as a president because I started so young. I was 37. But it was just it’s I mean, I think it’s a great calling if you look at it that way. I mean, there is a lot of stuff that’s going on, and I’m glad I have a year at Morehouse to sort of take a break from that that lifestyle, because it is this lifestyle. When something jumps off in the middle of the night, you’re getting the call. So I’m glad to have that break. But I just view it as a calling, I’m a preachers kid, too. So it’s like when you understand those callings, it’s was like, yeah, this is what I’m supposed to do.

Dr. Christina Greer [00:04:36] I mean, I love this idea that a university president is a calling because, I mean, especially since you’ve chosen to dedicate, you know, your life and your resources to HBCU, you know, this is the production of knowledge for Black youth. And that is something that I think is a lot deeper than just, you know, it’s deeper than a job. It’s. Deeper than just, you know, I’m here, I fundraise and, you know, make sure these buildings are getting built. It’s a much larger lineage. You know, you’re at Morehouse. My uncle graduated from Morehouse in 58. My cousin graduated sometime in the late eighties, early nineties. But I have a special place in my heart for Morehouse. And for sure.

Dr. Walter Kimbrough [00:05:18] Yeah, no, definitely is. You know, I started my career at Emory, so I’ve been around privilege and prestige and worked at large, predominately white institutions, graduated from three of them. So I understand that. But when you’re at an HBCU, and particularly as a president, I have conversations with students that most of my colleagues would not. Because you will have folks come in and drop all of their baggage right there with you and that you’re figuring out this is not in my job description. I’ve got to figure out how to help this child get some groceries, how they’re going to take care of the child, all those kinds of things that just become part of it. And I think that’s what makes it so meaningful for me.

Dr. Christina Greer [00:05:57] Yeah. I mean, you know, I, HWCUs my entire life and teach at one now and, and, you know, lots of people say PWI for our listeners out there, PWI is predominately white institutions. I call them HWCUs because HBCUs historically Black colleges and universities. I say HWCUs historically white colleges and universities because they were set up for the production of white knowledge. You know, we just happened to go there decades later, but they weren’t set up for us necessarily. And so I find that working in an institution is is it’s rewarding for me as an educator because, yes, I have my Black students where we are talking about some personal matters and trying to have a holistic understanding of their college experience. But I think it’s also important for white students to see Black leaders, whether we are educators or, you know, presidents as well. Now, what was your what’s your Ph.D. in?

Dr. Walter Kimbrough [00:06:50] So my position in higher education. So I really lean into the study of higher education with sort of being linked to my studies of fraternities and sororities and that kind of thing. But that’s that’s my my area. I’m a student affairs guy, so I was always working on that side of the house, working, you know, the out of class experience. So residence life, student activities, those kinds of issues.

Dr. Christina Greer [00:07:11] Well, I wore yellow because I heard that you’re an Alpha, but it’s a little it’s a little nod because my dad’s a Que, So it could be translated.

Dr. Walter Kimbrough [00:07:20] It could be either. Right.

Dr. Christina Greer [00:07:21] It could be translated to purple and gold as well.

Dr. Walter Kimbrough [00:07:23] Yeah, exactly.

Dr. Christina Greer [00:07:24] I just didn’t want to say I didn’t want to where we’re ready to represent my brother in law, who’s a Kappa than my my poor grandfather, you know. And I’m so excited for our listeners to hear more about your book. But my poor grandfather, my fraternal grandfather was a Sigma and had three Omega sons, and so there was just nothing could do about it. And my my oldest uncle pledged at Morehouse in the early fifties. So are you ready to play Blackest Questions?

Dr. Walter Kimbrough [00:07:53] I am ready.

Dr. Christina Greer [00:07:54] I am so thankful that you’re here taking a break from your busy schedule. Okay, First question. Let’s get started. The founder of Monogram, a luxury weed brand, is launching a fund to invest in minority owned cannabis startups to bolster Black participation in the overwhelmingly white cannabis industry. Who is he?

Dr. Walter Kimbrough [00:08:16] Founder of Monogram. See this? That’s a tricky question because as a college president, I really shouldn’t know anything about the we industry like that. Monogram. Founder of monogram. I can’t give you an answer. I don’t know off the top of my head. I know I know who it is, but it’s not ringing a bell.

Dr. Christina Greer [00:08:33] You know who he is? His name is Jay-Z. In July 2019, Jay-Z, a 22 time Grammy Award winner whose real name is Shawn Carter, launched a cannabis brand monogram. And in 2021, monogram launched a national Drug Policy awareness campaign, which educated users about the disproportionate effects of federal drug laws. Monogram used taglines in its ad campaigns, quote, “The war on drugs worked if systemic racism was the goal.” Another ad from the campaign read “You can marry your first cousin and more states than you can buy recreational weed.” So by launching the Social Equity Ventures fund, Jay-Z’s goal is to promote Black participation in the cannabis space and serve as a stepping stone for people who have been maligned by America’s war on drugs. So this is Monogram, Jay-Z’s new venture. And we know that Joe Biden recently is pardoning federal convictions for simple marijuana possession, which was a huge Biden Harris promise that he kept. Have you talked to some of your students or colleagues about this moment and how it affects them as far as not just formerly convicted individuals having their records expunged? But are some of your students interested in getting into the cannabis industry and going down that entrepreneurial road?

Dr. Walter Kimbrough [00:09:47] Yeah, I’ve heard more about that in terms of students want to be involved in that industry. In fact, in Louisiana, at Southern University in Baton Rouge, which is also an HBCU, they’re really growing cannabis there and really working to change some of that. One of the key Senate candidates in Louisiana, Garret Chambers, is most noted for having this commercial where he’s smoking weed in the commercial. So he’s really trying to figure out, like, how do we make sure that people can benefit from an industry that has caused so many folks to be locked up. So it really is a sea change going from, you know, all the people that have been arrested or in jail or have some kind of sentence against them for a small usage. And then initially, when we started to have this industry grow, the people who were making most of the money were white men. So it’s sort of like we have losing. So I think it is important for people to get involved. And I think you’re seeing more and more African-Americans figure out that this is a way to get involved and know there are other hip hop artists that have had conversations about getting involved in cannabis industry as well.

Dr. Christina Greer [00:10:49] Now, as a college president, how did you and your campus negotiate marijuana? Because keep mine on the federal level. It’s still, you know, like we’re on a state by state situation. There’s some places, you know, in New York, it’s not really enforced in the same ways anymore, as long as it’s beneath a certain amount, you know. How did you negotiate this as a college president?

Dr. Walter Kimbrough [00:11:10] Yeah, I mean, it’s one of those things that I think overall, particularly at Dillard, we just had a just blanket no smoking policy as a whole. So you just you don’t discriminate based on what the person is smoking. It wasn’t I think, any major you know, we’re chasing people down. If you have someone who was selling, that became a different issue. And so I think there was a different level of discipline involved in that. But just day to day, you know, you’re really trying to do more of the education and talk about it because there still could be some health issues related to the use of marijuana. And so those are the kinds of ways I think we really tried to approach it, because you don’t want to be a place and I learned this when I was working at Albany State, You just don’t want to just start arresting students, you know, over and over cause you’re create another problem, just, you know, small amounts of marijuana. That’s not really it. So let’s focus more on education piece of it.

Dr. Christina Greer [00:11:58] I’m so happy to have you here. We’re going to take a quick commercial break and then we’re going to come back with Dr. Walter Kimbrough. Okay, we are back and we’re playing the Blackest Questions with Dr. Walter Kimbrough. Walter, are you ready for question number two?

Dr. Walter Kimbrough [00:12:16] I’m ready for two.

Dr. Christina Greer [00:12:18] Okay. This fictional historically Black college was first reference on this popular television show. What was the show and what was the fictional HBCU?

Dr. Walter Kimbrough [00:12:29] So the show would be A Different World if it’s the show that I’m thinking of and the name of their college for A Different World. See being at Morehouse I want to say Mission College because thats School Daze.

Dr. Christina Greer [00:12:44] Mm hmm.

Dr. Walter Kimbrough [00:12:45] So now I’m confusing my popular culture references. But it’s School Daze, I mean, A Different World is the show. I can’t remember the name of the school.

Dr. Christina Greer [00:12:56] The school, you were correct. It’s A Different World. And it’s Hillman.

Dr. Walter Kimbrough [00:13:01] Hillman. And here to the whole Hillman.

Dr. Christina Greer [00:13:04] Yeah.

Dr. Walter Kimbrough [00:13:04] So I’m not doing well today.

Dr. Christina Greer [00:13:06] No, that’s okay. And, you know, and the thing is, as I tell all my guests, this show is for, you know, Black history is American history. But all of us have brain freezes. You know, when I was on my podcast sibling’s show, Pantami Jackson had me on his Dear Culture show and he flipped the tables on me and I had to play the Blackest Questions. And I was 0 for 2  when he asked me some questions. So this is A Different World. It’s Hillman College, and Hillman College was located in Virginia on the show, and the exact locality of the school was never revealed, but it was alluded to as being halfway between Richmond and the Hampton Roads area. But visual shots of the Hillman campus that were used in the series were actually filmed at two real life Black colleges, Clark Atlanta University and Spelman College, both in Atlanta, Georgia. And the first references to Hillman were on The Cosby Show. They were made during season one when it’s mentioned that that’s where Cliff Huxtable and Clair Hanks went to school while they were engaged. And Cliff’s father, Russell, was also a Hillman man, and the school made its first onscreen appearance in the third season finale of The Cosby Show titled Hillman. When Cliff and Clair and their family attended a Hillman commencement ceremony which also honored the retiring president. So student life at Hillman College was truly extraordinary. The campus had two major fraternities and sororities Kappa Lambda Nu and Alpha Delta Rho, and the campus had several dormitories, including Gilbert Hall, which was Whitley Gilbert’s ancestors, Libbey Hall, and then Dorothy Height Hall. And I don’t know. Do you remember that episode when I think it was Dwayne Wayne and Ron were pledging and Dwayne drops line and Ron ends up crossing over. And I thought that was such an interesting and beautiful episode about two friends who embark on this journey to brotherhood, official brotherhood within a fraternity, and one decides it’s not for him and the tension that ensues, but also this lasting idea of you can be brothers with your fraternity brothers, but you can also still have brotherhood with men who are not in your fraternity. I thought it was a beautiful way to explain a scenario that I think a lot of Black men have gone through when they they’ve decided to pledge and either gone through it or decided to drop line.

Dr. Walter Kimbrough [00:15:17] Yeah, no, definitely. I think that that is realistic. It’s interesting, too, because Daryl Bale, who plays Ron, is actually a member of my fraternity, Alpha Phi Alpha, and he was also in the movie School Daze. I’m trying to get some bonus points here because the things you asked me and I’m answering all these, you know, extraneous things which are funny. But yeah, it’s really interesting to see that as a part of the you know, that show this show did a lot particularly I wrote a piece for The New York Times several years ago that looked at HBCU enrollment during the years of a different world. And there was a market increase That’s and there still people today I talked to students who just say my parents told me about it. So I go back and I watch it, you know, on some kind of streaming service. So it really still is one of those major cultural indicators for Black folks when they start thinking about HBCUs, how much that this show plays. So I think you’re looking at from 87 to 93, somewhere in that period of time is when the show ran. But it really had a cause in uptick in HBCU enrollment.

Dr. Christina Greer [00:16:18] I agree. And, you know, I come from a family that went to HBCUs. My mom went to Florida Memorial and cousins who are the FAMU. Uncles and cousins who went to Morehouse and Spelman and Howard. So HBCUs were very prominent in my family, extended and otherwise. But I have a lot of friends who are first generation college, and the reason why they A went to college and B went to an HBCU is because they watched A Different World and that was their introduction to university life. No one in their family had gone to college. And so they were saying, I want I want this experience with other smart Black people. And then they didn’t know anyone who was Greek. You know, I grew up with my entire sort of all my aunties and uncles, my aunties are all AKAs, so is my mom. And my uncles were all Ques. So growing up in Greek life, that was very normal and natural. But I have friends who pledged because they saw, you know, Ron pledge. They saw Kim pledge in A Different World. And then obviously bringing it back to School Daze, was it Gamma Phi Gamma?

Dr. Walter Kimbrough [00:17:20] Gamma Phi Gamma, Right.

Dr. Christina Greer [00:17:21] You know, and Spike Lee crossing over and really seeing certain aspects of the fraternal life, which they didn’t necessarily grow up with, which I think was really important. And then don’t forget, you remember back in the day when Martin used to host Def Jam, he always had on HBCU sweatshirts. I remember Grambling and Jackson State, Howard, He always represented HBCUs. And I think about that nowadays. It would seem it would seem a little odd, I think, these days if a major celebrity actually supported HBCUs the way.

Dr. Walter Kimbrough [00:17:55] You know, that that was you saw in in the Martin Lawrence show, you saw it in Living Single, they always Queen Latifah always had it. So that was really a part of the. Culture at that point in time when there was a lot of that. I mean, that was back in the days when, you know, Howard homecoming. You had Biggie at the homecoming. I mean, those were some really major cultural flash points as well.

Dr. Christina Greer [00:18:16] Hmm. Okay. We’re going to take a quick break with Dr. Walter Kimbrough, and we will continue playing the Blackest Questions. And we’re back and we’re playing the Blackest Questions with Dr. Walter Kimbrough. Okay, Walter, are you ready for question number three?

Dr. Walter Kimbrough [00:18:34] I’m ready.

Dr. Christina Greer [00:18:35] Okay, So now question number three. This organization was founded in early 1960 in Raleigh, North Carolina, to capitalize on the success of the surge of sit ins in Southern College towns where Black students refused to leave restaurants in which they were denied service based on their race. What was the organization or hint committee called?

Dr. Walter Kimbrough [00:18:56] It would be SNCC. Student Nonviolent Coordinating Committee.

Dr. Christina Greer [00:18:59] That’s right. Ding, ding, ding. So the Student Nonviolent Coordinating Committee, or SNCC also emerged from organizers and members of the Southern Christian Leadership Conference known as SCLC. So SNCC was formed at Shaw University under the facilitation of Elijah Baker, who is the executive director of SCLC in 1960. It was started as a group advocating nonviolence and adopted greater militancy later in the decade when Stokely Carmichael joined, reflecting a nationwide trend in Black activism. Now, in 1963, SNCC endeavored to register African-American voters in central Alabama. The focus of those efforts was the county seat Selma, where only one or 2% of eligible Black voters were actually registered. And so led by SNCC Chairman John Lewis. Hosea Williams, one of Dr. Martin Luther King’s Southern Christian Leadership Conference lieutenants. And some 600 demonstrators walked to by to the six blocks to the Edmund Pettus Bridge that crossed the Alabama River and led out of Selma on Sunday, March 7th, which is now known as Bloody Sunday. And on March 15th, just over a week after Bloody Sunday, President Lyndon Baines Johnson introduced voting rights legislation in an address to a joint session of Congress. So 61 years after Bloody Sunday, the Voting Rights Act is still being challenged. Dr. Kimbrough, can you explain to our listeners what you think is at stake when you talk to your students, when you walk around college campuses and you recognize that we’ve come a really long way, but we’ve got a long way to go? What do you tell your young people about voting and the importance of of keeping this fight alive?

Dr. Walter Kimbrough [00:20:37] Yeah, it’s it it has to be a bigger picture, I think, for too many voters. I think the question is, if I voted for you and I don’t get what I want immediately, then why should I vote for you again? And, you know, I sometimes I look at it based on parties. I think many times Republican voters are more ideological. And so they’re thinking, you know, I have this idea that I want the country to look a certain way. And so it’s more transformational versus being a transactional, which I think a lot of young people are say, well, I voted for so-and-so and I didn’t get this, I didn’ get that. Not understanding that there are many layers that are involved. And so, you know, with this current election season for the next few years, people are talking about, you know, crime and inflation, all those kinds of things. But you have to look bigger picture in terms of issues of democracy, where your vote be able to be counted. Do we really create what I always fear that we create an American apartheid system because that’s how we’re starting to look. You look at the gerrymandering in places like, you know, Louisiana, where I live in is a state that’s 35, 38% Black. There are six congressional districts. And so all the Black folks are sort of stuck in one and the way that they draw these districts. Same thing in Alabama. It draw them in ways to sort of limit your voice to really deal with the issues. So people are upset to say, well, we didn’t get X, Y or Z is like because you don’t have enough votes. The math is a math. You don’t have the math to do that, but you are looking at it like this. So you get mad in and say, Well, I’m not going to vote anymore.

Dr. Walter Kimbrough [00:22:04] So I think I’ve heard people talk about it. I think democracy is on the ballot and you start looking at certain things. And so you start with Roe versus Wade. You know, a lot of my friends will say this, too. Affirmative action is dead. So that’s the next thing which will impact even students at HBCUs, that that’s an impact for them and other opportunities that they will have. So those are the kinds of things that people need to start thinking about. So and I think students are understanding it. I had a conversation recently with some Morehouse student, you know, being in the state of Georgia and looking at the Senate campaign and just looking at our choices for candidates and just to say, why is this even halfway close?

Dr. Christina Greer [00:22:41] Right.

Dr. Walter Kimbrough [00:22:41] I mean, when one of the candidates basically represents every negative stereotype of Black men. And that’s the person that is being propped up as a person to be one of 100 people to serve this country. So, I mean, we had a robust discussion about this recently. So I think they’re getting some of that. But it’s is you have to think long term, it just can’t be transactional right now. I voted for you and I didn’t get this immediately, so I’m not going to vote because that’s not how other folks think about it. They’re like, I might not get it now. So, like, you know, Mitch McConnell said, I’m playing the long game and he wrote a book where he talked about that. So it was like, we have to think long game as well and not immediate.

Dr. Christina Greer [00:23:23] Yeah. And I think, you know, that piece is so important. But I think for me, with my students when I’m explaining to them about the long game. And their impatience in some ways, because, you know, the frustration they have is why I voted for this person and they didn’t win. So the system is ridiculous and I don’t I don’t want to play anymore. And I have to explain to them, this isn’t the time to pack up your marbles and go. We actually have to stay in it. I mean, when we think about the civil rights movement, this was decade. This was a long conversation that we had a series of fights, multiple fights on a daily basis. And that’s the way we have to fight for our democracy on a daily basis. So what what’s inspiring you right now? I mean, you know, I always say have the honor and privilege to be with young people on a daily basis. You know, you’re on a new campus. You’re you’re back in your old city. What’s inspiring you right now when you look at these young men of Morehouse, this campus, when it comes to either voting rights or fighting for our democracy or just leadership in general, what are they focusing on and what are you getting excited about?

Dr. Walter Kimbrough [00:24:30] Yeah, this has been, I think, a great experience for me. You know, once again, not having the day to day of a presidency to deal with. So I can really be in the space.

Dr. Christina Greer [00:24:40] You don’t have to be the firefighter.

Dr. Walter Kimbrough [00:24:41] Right. I’m not the firefighter at all. So it’s like if something’s on fire, nobody’s calling me. So I’m okay. I can’t whip out my little badge to say I can fight fires, too. But anyway, that’s another conversation.

Dr. Christina Greer [00:24:51] That’s Herschel Walker.

Dr. Walter Kimbrough [00:24:53] Right? So, you know, just in terms of finding these young men who want to be connected, who have these goals and dreams and really have a realization, which I try to tell students a lot, the power of being connected, the number of students who will just sort of see me and connect and say, Hey, I want to come talk to you. Like I said, I’m the new guy on campus. But for people to understand, to say, this is somebody that I need to know, he might be able to help me as I want to develop my dreams. I talked to a student recently about a mentoring program that he wants to do, a student who transferred into Morehouse originally from California. So I’m just meeting, you know, guys that are coming in and are having these ideas and how they want to make an impact on the world has been exciting to me that they have not heard. A morehouse Grant had a panel discussion a few years ago talk about this idea of relentless excellence. And I see that. I feel it. I mean, it is palpable to me. And so that makes me excited to be in a space like this where you have these young men who really want to do well, who want to push each other to do well as well. So it’s been invigorating on so many levels.

Dr. Christina Greer [00:25:59] All right. We’re going to take a quick commercial break and we’re coming back with Dr. Walter Kimbrough playing the Blackest Questions. And we are back with Dr. Walter Kimbrough. We’re playing the Blackest Questions. Are you ready for question number four?

Dr. Walter Kimbrough [00:26:17] I am ready.

Dr. Christina Greer [00:26:18] Okay. So this is a young African-American indentured servant is believed to have helped in the creation of the Star-Spangled Banner flag. Who was she?

Dr. Walter Kimbrough [00:26:34] Sounds familiar, but I don’t know.

Dr. Christina Greer [00:26:42] So this one. I had to look up myself. It’s Grace Wisher. So when Wisher entered into her six year contract with Mary Pickersgill on January 6, 1810, she was there to learn the art and mystery of housework in plain sewing, and she was believed to be about ten years old. And Wisher’s mother Jenny also signed the contract to become an indentured servant. So not much is known about Wisher, but places like the Star Spangled Banner Flag House, the former location where she and Pickersgill once lived, are trying to make Wishers contribution to the iconic flag known. And this is the flag with 15 stars and 15 stripes. And so it’s at the site of the well-known painting by Robert McGill McKell, which depicts the scene of Pickersgill and our household with the flag. But Wisher isn’t shown in the portrait. So to represent the young woman in the image, the museum has drawn a ghost figure on the plexiglass that hangs over the painting. So this is part of a larger conversation of the contributions of Black people to the foundation of America. And, you know, Walter, I have a somewhat complicated relationship with the U.S. flag and saying the Pledge of Allegiance. You know, as a university president who, you know, is in charge of not just the production of knowledge and not just building an institution, but you’re also, you know, creating a foundation for American democracy as well. And I’m pretty sure flags fly all over the university. What’s your relationship with the flag and how do you feel when you when you sort of have those, you know, pomp and circumstance moments with the flag?

Dr. Walter Kimbrough [00:28:14] Yeah, it is pretty interesting, I think. You know, for a lot of HBCUs when you have those formal programs, you will do the national anthem as well as a Negro national anthem, which I think particularly a lot of HBCU choirs have really taken to a, you know, a great level. So that’s really important, you know, particularly after Kaepernick, you would have more opportunities where if you have a sporting event and you have the national anthem, you would see more people who would sit on those kinds of things. You know, for me, it was like, is it really even necessary? Sometimes even play the national anthem at a sporting event, Let’s just play the game. So that’s what we really started to do because it wasn’t as important. Campuses, the flag flies because part of it is and I tell our students as well, when you’re on a campus where 70 plus percent of your students are Pell Grant eligible, that means you’re receiving federal funds, those are taxpayers dollars. And they’re not just Black taxpayer, those are taxpayers. And so that you still have this relationship with the federal government, whether you’ve got some issues with it or not, that you’re not going to make it on your own without that federal support. That’s something that you need, your own federal support as well. But that means that everybody technically has a stake in that campus and that institution. So that’s the way that I look at it like that. I don’t make that much of a big deal out of it. I mean, I have a 17 year old at home, a 16 year old, and she won’t stand for the for the anthem for all kinds of things. It’s like and I was just asking her well, tell me why? So if you can explain it, I’m cool with that. It’s not a problem.

Dr. Christina Greer [00:29:41] Spoken like a true educator, right? It’s like, listen, if you can explain the protest, I’m into it.

Dr. Walter Kimbrough [00:29:46] Exactly.

Dr. Christina Greer [00:29:47] If you can’t, then we’ve got an issue.

Dr. Walter Kimbrough [00:29:49] Right. We have an issue. So I look at it. So, you know, I just try to balance that, to say, all right, you know, I always tease folks, too, about, you know, a complicated place like Howard University where there are lots of protests. But Howard really receives about a quarter of his budget directly from the federal government. So it’s like, all right, I understand y’all want to protest certain things, but without that federal government support, you don’t exist.

Dr. Christina Greer [00:30:11] Right.

Dr. Walter Kimbrough [00:30:11] So there is a complicated relationship that, you know, you want to be completely independent and receive no federal funding. You go ahead and do that. But realistically, there is no HBCU in the country that can do that. That’s just impossible. So, yeah, they’re going to be something which goes back to your your original point. That means that they also have a stake in making sure that the country works for them. And it’s not that you can sit out and not vote and do certain things. You got to be engaged in the work. I think is very important.

Dr. Christina Greer [00:30:39] Well, and I agree with you one 1,000%. Now, part of what we try and do here on the blog questions is also, you know, just introduce new individuals that many people have never heard of. You know, and my argument is always Black history is American history. And we should know all of these great Black figures in American history, but so should everyone else. It shouldn’t just be Black people who know all the great contributions of Black folks in this country. Is there a particular figure in Black history who you really love that isn’t as wide as widely known? You know, I feel like a lot of people know Martin Luther King and Frederick Douglass and Sojourner Truth and Harriet Tubman. And no disrespect to those amazing Americans, by the way, not just Black Americans. But is there someone, you know, when you were pledging or in your studies where you’re like, this person just doesn’t get there, just do. My person is always Mary McLeod Bethune.

Dr. Walter Kimbrough [00:31:32] Yeah well I mean you know former college president. So of course she would resonate with me as well. So I’m going to go back to Mays at this just part of because people talk about King, but I’m like, but do you understand who was college president? Was he became a model for me as a president because you would read each of their works and they would talk about the relationship that they had. So after Benjamin Mays would do the weekly chapel service, Dr. King would come to the office and debate the conversation. They had that kind of relationship. And I always told people I want to be the kind of college president like Dr. Mays, because when Dr. King died, his college president gave his eulogy. To me, that’s powerful that, you know, you have that kind of relationship that you’re speaking at the students funeral, giving that eulogy. So I think that the way that he crafted this institution, being president from 1940 to 1967, has just always been fascinating to me. So I’m just yeah, I think we talk a lot about King, but then we don’t read enough from Dr. Mays, who wrote a book called Disturbed About Man. And it’s one of the most powerful books I’ve ever read. So he was just this very thoughtful kind of person that was really excited about.

Dr. Christina Greer [00:32:45] Oh, I’m so excited to get that book today. I’m going to go to my local Black bookstore and find it. Okay. We’re going to take a quick commercial break. I’m sitting here talking to Dr. Walter Kimbrough. I can’t wait to come back to Blackest Questions. Okay, we’re back. Final question on the Blackest Questions. Walter, are you ready?

Dr. Walter Kimbrough [00:33:09] I’m ready.

Dr. Christina Greer [00:33:10] Okay. Largely credited with helping build America’s middle class after World War Two. What? Bill denied possibly 1 million Black World War two veterans economic opportunities?

Dr. Walter Kimbrough [00:33:21] The G.I. Bill.

Dr. Christina Greer [00:33:22] The G.I. Bill is correct. So the G.I. Bill is a piece of sweeping legislation aimed at helping World War Two veterans prosper after World War Two. The bill helped white Americans prosper and accumulate wealth in the postwar years, but it didn’t deliver on that promise for veterans of color. In fact, the why disparity in the bill’s implementation ended up helping drive growing gaps in wealth, education and civil rights between white and Black Americans. The G.I. Bill’s language did not specifically exclude African-American veterans from its benefits. It was structured in a way that ultimately shut doors for the 1.2 million Black veterans who had bravely served their country during World War Two in segregated ranks. And when lawmakers began drafting the G.I. Bill in 1944, some Southern Democrats feared that returning Black veterans would use public sympathy for veterans to advocate against Jim Crow laws. So to make sure the G.I. Bill largely benefited white people, the Southern Democrats drew in tactics they’d previously used to ensure that the New Deal helped as few Black people as possible. We now know because of party realignment, those Southern Democrats are now members of the modern day Republican Party. So you spoke about the G.I. Bill creating a wealth gap. Can you tell us a little bit more about that, that research that you’ve done?

Dr. Walter Kimbrough [00:34:35] Yes. You know, part of particularly recently when President Biden said that he was going to forgive the student loan debt $10,000 and up to $20,000 for Pell Grant recipients, I kept hearing people saying, well, that’s just not fair. And I’m like, let’s talk about the history of unfairness that created this income and wealth inequality. Let’s start with the G.I. Bill, because Black soldiers didn’t have the same benefits. And a lot of times they ended up having to go to under-resourced HBCUs that we’re finding more out about, particularly those that were state institutions. Part of the Moral Land Grant Act. They receive federal money contingent upon their states providing a match. States didn’t provide the same match. So now you have states like Louisiana that was shorted $1,000,000,000 or a couple of billion dollars in Tennessee or Georgia. So all across the south, these schools have been shorted. So when the school has less money, what happens? That means that the students then have to take out larger loans. So that greatly impacts. So we’re talking about things that aren’t fair. I can show you a whole lot that hasn’t been fair and you can link it to the G.I. Bill. They weren’t able to even if they had the bill, they weren’t able to buy houses in certain areas. And so we know that particular for African-Americans, that’s a major way that we accumulate wealth. So you couldn’t accumulate wealth the same kind of way, and we could generate that wealth that help pay for college. So then to say now, well, is not fair. I completely reject that. It’s like, let’s talk about not fair. Let’s talk about most, you know, Black students as a whole are women. And the HBCUs are about 2 to 1 Black women. And if we think about equal Black women’s Equal Pay Day this past year, it was middle of September. So Black women have to work 19 months to make what white man make in 12 months. That’s not fair either. So we’re not talking about that. So I like I don’t want to hit a fair in this conversation unless we have a broad fairness conversation. So this loan forgiveness, particularly geared toward students with, you know, who come from the lowest socioeconomic backgrounds, is fair. That is fundamentally fair. So that’s the way that I but you can look at how we start with the G.I. Bill. Let’s start there and let’s take it all the way forward.

Dr. Christina Greer [00:36:43] Right. Right. And, you know, I think so many folks don’t want to to have loan forgiveness because of this fairness question. But we are so ahistoric as a nation. You know, we don’t go back to talk about, you know, as I mentioned in my brief description of the G.I. Bill, you know, so much of the New Deal cut out Black women. So from 100 years ago, we had limitations on our wealth creation because domestics were included in the in the social safety net. That was the New Deal. And we know back then the vast majority of domestics who worked inside of homes were Black women. And so this is 100 years of money that was not able to be invested and put into Black families and circulations. So besides loan debt forgiveness, are there other ways that we can kind of correct the errors of the G.I. Bill and level the playing field?

Dr. Walter Kimbrough [00:37:36] So one of the main things that we advocated in HBCU community is the use of the Pell Grant. The Pell Grant hasn’t really kept up with cause really, the Pell Grants should be triple. I mean, we talked about doubling it, but Pell Grant, because it targeted it targets low income students regardless of race. It’s one of the fairest things that can be done is the kind of investment that we should make. But what has happened over the course of time is that as America has become Blacker and browner and the people in Congress they stay the same, they look the same way. You have more and more people who are saying this on a state and a federal level who are saying some of it out loud. Well, those kids don’t need the same kind of education. So they were willing to put the money years ago into a G.I. Bill that they aren’t willing to make the same kind of investment in the Pell Grant today. Why? Because most of those Pell Grant recipients actually look like America, and people don’t want to level that playing field for everyone else. That’s one. If we would just do Pell Grant and triple the value of the program so that low income people, no matter what their race or background is, could have access to that money. That would be a major investment in the future of America. But once again, you have people who can start making excuses to say, oh, well, it’s just plain racism is what it is. I mean, this is what it is. They don’t want to make sure that these Black and brown folks can get the same kind of education that their kids can get. So they want to keep this gap that exist.

Dr. Christina Greer [00:39:01] Right. And to quote my father, excuses are the tools of the incompetent. So and we know that people have gone way out of their way to make sure that this playing field is has never been leveled. We’re going to take a quick break and I’m going to come back and we’re going to play the Black Lightning Round with Dr. Walter Kimbrough. Okay, Walter, before we let you get out of here, we’ve got time for the Black bonus round questions. Are you ready for Black Lightning?

Dr. Walter Kimbrough [00:39:30] Black Lightning? One of my favorite shows. Yes.

Dr. Christina Greer [00:39:32] And this is. There are no right answers. This is just how you feel about certain things. Okay, You ready? Okay.

Dr. Walter Kimbrough [00:39:38] All right.

Dr. Christina Greer [00:39:39] Okay. City with the best food. New Orleans or Atlanta?

Dr. Walter Kimbrough [00:39:43] Oh, it’s got to be New Orleans.

Dr. Christina Greer [00:39:44] Okay. Best HBCU campus. Philander Smith or Dillard.

Dr. Walter Kimbrough [00:39:49] Dillard is beautiful.

[00:39:51] Soul food, fried chicken, cornbread, collard greens or a plate of seafood. Salmon with rice and broccoli?

Dr. Walter Kimbrough [00:39:57] Fried chicken, cornbread, collard greens and sweet tea with lemon.

Dr. Christina Greer [00:40:01] Oh, sweet tear. And, you know, you got to have the hot sauce on the side.

Dr. Walter Kimbrough [00:40:05] I don’t need it. If the chicken is right, you don’t need anything else.

Dr. Christina Greer [00:40:07] Oh, really? Okay. See, I was the. I always need some hot sauce. Okay, here we go. Public Enemy or Black Star?

Dr. Walter Kimbrough [00:40:14] Public Enemy?

Dr. Christina Greer [00:40:15] Kirk Franklin or Ricky Dillard?

Dr. Walter Kimbrough [00:40:19] I love them both. Um, I’m probably gonna leave with Kirk since Kirk has spoken on two of my campuses. So I’m lean with Kirk just because of the relationship.

Dr. Christina Greer [00:40:29] MC Light or Queen Latifah?

Dr. Walter Kimbrough [00:40:31] MC Light was on our board at Dillard. That’s. That’s my girl.

Dr. Christina Greer [00:40:34] Oh, good. Is she is reverse aging, too. She and Queen Latifah, both of them. I’m like, what is happening? You all look like you’re 22 years old. Okay, Best rap group. OutKast or Tribe Called Quest?

Dr. Walter Kimbrough [00:40:47] OutKast. You got to stay home with Atlanta. It’s not even close. And Big Boi is one of the most underrated rappers. If you have a top five underrated, Big Boi is in that group. He’s underratted.

Dr. Christina Greer [00:40:55] You know, Walter, I’m a birder and I just found out that he’s a birder. So, you know, now all of a sudden, he’s my new best friend.

Dr. Walter Kimbrough [00:41:01] Yeah. Yeah.

Dr. Christina Greer [00:41:02] Okay. Would you rather order Chinese takeout or have a 12 ounce steak with potatoes?

Dr. Walter Kimbrough [00:41:06] 12 ounce. Easily. Yeah, easily.

Dr. Christina Greer [00:41:09] If you had to choose, How To Get Away With Murder or Scandal?

Dr. Walter Kimbrough [00:41:13] Oh, Scandal. I’m still in love with Kerry Washington. That’s my girlfriend. My wife knows that, too. So at some point in time, I got to meet Kerry Washington, cause I’m still in love with her.

Dr. Christina Greer [00:41:22] Yes, that’s okay. You’re allowed. Okay, here we go. On a drive from New Orleans to Atlanta. Are you listening to gospel or golden age Hip Hop? 87 to 93.

Dr. Walter Kimbrough [00:41:33] I’ll probably listen to gospel, actually. Probably listen to gospel. Yeah.

Dr. Christina Greer [00:41:36] Well, Walter, I just want to thank you so much for joining the Blackest Questions. I really want to thank you for your dedication and your service to Black people in general and higher education. More specifically, I’m so excited to see what you do next and give us the name of your book one more time. Just for all of our listeners who love it, appreciate Greek life can check it out.

Dr. Walter Kimbrough [00:41:57] Right? So the book is Black Greek 101: The Culture, Customs and Challenges of Black Fraternities and Sororities. Next year actually will turn 20 years old, and I still meet people who were just saying when I was going through my process is required for me to read your book. So that’s always one of the biggest compliments I can get that these people who are coming from all different organizations who say, We had to read your book, So I’m very appreciative of that.

Dr. Christina Greer [00:42:18] Well, I’m appreciative that you’ve joined us here in the Blackest Questions. And I want to thank you all for listening to the Blackest Questions. The show is produced by Akilah Shedrick, Jesse Vargas and Sasha Armstrong. And if you like what you heard, please download the app and listen and watch many more great shows and share it with everyone you know.