“In a state that had been decimated economically by the Civil War, they found a cash cow, the mass incarceration system.” The United States incarcerates more people than any other nation in the world and Black and Latino people are disproportionately affected by mass incarceration. Michael Harriot explains why that reality is intentional and began with “Black codes” following the Civil War.
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[00:00:00] You are now listening to theGrio’s Black Podcast Network Black Culture Amplified.Â
Michael Harriot [00:00:05] And welcome to another episode of theGrio Daily. Of course, it’s Black History Month, and all of this month we’re looking at America and America and Black History through the lens of what I call the capitol of Black America, which is South Carolina. All, you know, almost everything that we talk about in Black culture and Black history can be tied back to South Carolina. And today we’re going to talk about the criminal justice system and to understand the criminal justice system, we’re going to go right back to that good old Palmetto State. So welcome to theGrio, the only podcast that’ll tell you about the First Mass Incarceration.
Michael Harriot [00:00:57] Again, I know I’ve said it in previous podcasts, but some of y’all I know you all, some of you are skipping ahead or be skipping around on the podcast. So again, I think it is important to note that for most of South Carolina’s history, it has been a majority Black state. And after the Civil War, again, all of those enslaved people were free. They had the right to vote. They had a right to educate themselves. And South Carolina was really worried not just about, you know, Black people involved in the political system, but remember now once slavery was deemed unconstitutional, the south, which was primarily agricultural, especially South Carolina, who was one of the biggest producers of cotton in the world. Right. And that’s what cotton came from. You know, there are studies that show that during the time just before the Civil War, the value of cotton was worth more than all of the manufacturing products in the country.
Michael Harriot [00:02:20] So South Carolina and cotton and the slave economy was not just central to the state of South Carolina, but to the country. And once, you know, you take away a free labor force, how do you make money? Right. Like, you know, Amazon got robots, but I don’t like the robot industry was very, very limited back in the 1860s, the mid 1860s. It got better a few years later. But back then, when you lived in a state that was primarily agricultural, the whole economy basically collapsed and they had to figure out a way to keep that economy rolling in those states where so many of those rich white planters were basically bankrupted. Well, how did they do that? Well, first, you know, when we talk about the idea of that 40 acres and a mule, that general water that supposedly gave Black people 40 acres and a mule in it in South Carolina, there were actual Black people who got their 40 acres and didn’t turn it back in or redeem it. But that ought to also remember that order also said that, hey, we want the Black people to stay on those plantations and work and we’ll make sure they pay you. Same is true for the executive order. It wasn’t an executive order. It was a military order that created what we call now Juneteenth in Galveston.
Michael Harriot [00:04:09] That order also said, stay where you are and work. Well, you know, Black people, they follow for that. Right. And I can’t imagine how hard it was for those white people, because I bet you like, first of all, the cookout after slavery ended. I bet you that was one of the greatest part. I bet they were cooking all night frying chicken for that for that cookout. But. A lot of those people were like, Man, forget that. Because when we think about plantations, we think about people who were picking cotton, who were, you know, laborers who were plowing the fields. But we have to remember that those entire plantations didn’t just run of Black labor. They ran off Black intellect. You know, one of my ancestors, for instance, he lived and worked on a plantation, but he was a Blacksmith. So his so-called owner actually hired him out as the Blacksmith for the entire county.
Michael Harriot [00:05:19] Well, he had a skill that was valuable, So why would he stay on that plantation? And the same is true for a lot of the Black people who were on plantations. They weren’t just laborers, they were agricultural experts. They were horticulturists. They were skilled cooks. They worked skill that child care. They were skilled at engineering. You know, I visited a plantation once while writing a story. And this plantation, the Magnolia Plantation in South Carolina, it was right after what they called a hundred year flood. And I asked them, how did this plantation at the nexus of a river and the Atlantic Ocean survive the 100 year flood? And they said, well, the enslaved people who worked here, they created this system of dams and levees that allow us to flood the fields when you know, when the tide is really high. And then we can just let the water out when it gets back low. So it, you know, kind of dams and prevents this plantation from flooding. Well the people who built that way back 250 years ago were engineers. They weren’t just laborers.
Michael Harriot [00:06:37] You know, again, you don’t think of slavery just in the context of labor. You have to think about that intellectual property that was stolen from those enslaved Africans too. Well, these people had all of these skills and they were going to make their own money off of them. They were going to hire themselves out to some of the smaller plantations. They were going to start their own farms. South Carolina had a a bank, essentially that Black legislature created a bank that would buy the land of these impoverished former slave owners. And Black people could borrow that money and pay it back over time, so many of them started their own farms. The Freedmen bureau also gave loans. They created bank accounts. There was a Freedman’s Bank that created banks that Black people could start their own businesses. They would cook for each other. Remember, Harriet Tubman, you know, didn’t earn money during the Civil War, even though she worked in the Army. She sold pies to other Black people to make money.
Michael Harriot [00:07:54] So these people had skills. And we’re going to try to find a way to make their own money. So what did South Carolina’s legislature do when the white people got back in charge? Well, they created what they call Black Codes. And we know a little about the Black Codes. People talk about, you know, the vagrancy laws, for instance, which made it illegal for people not to be working. It gave any white man the authority to arrest a Black man. It forbade Black people from refusing to work on their plantation form. So you could be, you know, creating your own business. But if your master said, well, he’s being a vagrant, you were arrested, and it wasn’t a judge that you would have to go in front of, a lot of the times in in South Carolina especially, these were just people out of the community who could deem you guilty. And that is what created South Carolina as the first state of mass incarceration now. Those prisons that were built did a lot of them existed before the Civil War, to be fair. But before the Civil War in the South, the predominant person, the average person who was in prison, who was serving in prison was white, male or an ethnic European.
Michael Harriot [00:09:41] In the state of Georgia, there were only six Black people incarcerated in the entire state in 1860, right before the Civil War. But for some reason, because of these Black Codes, because of these vagrancy laws, because of these laws, and here’s the important law that made it illegal for a Black person to learn a skill from another Black person, they funneled all of those formerly enslaved people into the prison system. And it wasn’t just out of animus. It wasn’t just out of economic necessity. See, what South Carolina created was a for profit prison system. See, not only would they send those Black men to jail, but the prisons would lease out those Black men to work on the plantation of those former slave owners. And in a state that had been decimated economically by the Civil War, they had found a cash cow, the mass incarceration system.
Michael Harriot [00:10:57] And that’s why many of those states who signed that 13th Amendment outlawing slavery, insisted on that clause being included. “Except as a punishment for a crime.” And that’s how America created. A mass incarceration system that was predominantly and disproportionately African American. They called it slavery by another name. And that’s why it’s important for us to remember that when left to our own devices, we will seek to create economic opportunity for ourselves. That’s why it’s important that you subscribe to this podcast. Download. Tell a friend and download that Grio streaming service because we talk about stuff like this all the time, and that’s why we always leave you with a famous Black saying. And today’s Black saying is “You can’t do the time, then don’t do the crime unless you’re Black and they’ll figure out a way for you to do the time.” If you like what you heard, please give us a five star review. Download theGrio app. Subscribe to the show and share it with everyone you know. Please email all questions, suggestions and compliments to podcasts at theGrio.com
[00:12:39] You are now listening to theGrio’s Black Podcast Network Black Culture Amplified?
Dr. Christina Greer [00:12:48] I’m political scientist, author and professor Dr. Christina Greer, and I’m host of The Blackest Questions on theGrio’s Black Podcast Network. This person invented ranch dressing around 1950. Who are they?
Marc Lamont Hill [00:13:01] I have no idea.
Dr. Christina Greer [00:13:02] This all began as an exclusive Black history trivia party at my home in Harlem with family and friends. And they got so popular it seemed only right to share the fun with our Grio listeners. Each week we invite a familiar face on the podcast to play. What was the name of the person who was an enslaved chief cook for George Washington and later ran away to freedom in 1868. This university was the first in the country to open a medical school that welcomed medical students of all races, genders and social classes. What university was it not?
Roy Wood, Jr. [00:13:36] This is why I like doing stuff with you, because I leave educated. I was not taught this in Alabama Public Schools.
Dr. Christina Greer [00:13:42] Question three. You ready?
Eboni K. Williams [00:13:43] Yes. I want to redeem myself.
Amanda Seales [00:13:45] How do we go from Kwanzaa to like these obscure.
Dr. Christina Greer [00:13:50] Diaspora, darling.
Amanda Seales [00:13:51] This is like the New York Times crossword from Monday to Saturday.
Dr. Christina Greer [00:13:55] Right or wrong. All we care about is the journey and having some fun while we do it.
Kalen Allen [00:14:00] I’m excited. And also a little nervous.
Dr. Christina Greer [00:14:02] Oh, listen. No need to be nervous. And as I tell all of my guests, this is an opportunity for us to educate ourselves because Black history is American history. So we still have some fun. Listen, some people get zero out to five. Some people to get five out of five. It doesn’t matter. We’re just going be on a little intellectual journey together.
Eboni K. Williams [00:14:18] Latoya Cantrell.
Dr. Christina Greer [00:14:21] That’s right. Mayor Latoya Cantrell.
Michael W. Twitty [00:14:23] Hercules Posey.
Dr. Christina Greer [00:14:24] Hmm. Born in 1754 and he was a member of the Mount Vernon slave community, widely admired for his culinary skills.
Kalen Allen [00:14:31] I’m going to guess AfroPunk.
Dr. Christina Greer [00:14:34] Close. It’s Afro Nation. So last year, according to my research, and Samuel Wilson, a.k.a. Falcon.
Jason Johnson [00:14:43] Wrong. Wrong. I am disputing this.
Lotasha Brown [00:14:48] Very, very, very rare 99.99. And I’m sure that it is Representative John Lewis, who is also from the state of Alabama, that, you know, Christina, we got some good this come out of Alabama.
Dr. Christina Greer [00:14:59] There is something in the water in Alabama. And you are absolutely correct.
Diallo Riddle [00:15:02] The harder they come.
Dr. Christina Greer [00:15:04] Close.
Diallo Riddle [00:15:05] Oh, wait, the harder they fall?
Dr. Christina Greer [00:15:07] That’s right. I’m one of those people that just changes one word.
Roy Wood, Jr. [00:15:12] I just don’t know nothing today. I’m gonna pour for myself a little water whole you tell me the answer.
Dr. Christina Greer [00:15:17] The answer is Seneca Village, which began in 1825 with the purchase of land by a trustee of the A.M.E. Zion Church.
Roy Wood, Jr. [00:15:23] You know why games like this make me nervous? I don’t know if I know enough Black. Do I know enought? How Black am I? Oh, my Lord. They they don’t. We going to find out in public.
Dr. Christina Greer [00:15:32] So give us a follow. Subscribe and join us on the Blackest Questions.
