Maiysha brings on Tony Award winner Michael R. Jackson to talk about his musical “A Strange Loop,” which he calls a “big, Black and Queer American Broadway show,” his character Usher’s love/hate relationship with Tyler Perry, breaking into a space where there aren’t many Black people, his love for Motown and more.
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Maiysha Kai [00:00:06] Hello and welcome to another episode of Writing Black on theGrio’s Black Podcast Network. I am your host, Maiysha Kai, and today we are welcoming playwright, composer and Detroit native Michael R. Jackson. His musical A Strange Loop has broken barriers in the metaverse as a musical about a Black queer man writing a musical about a Black queer man writing a musical and has also earned a Pulitzer Prize and a Tony Award for its writer. This excerpt might explain why.
A Strange Loop [00:00:36] With the portraits of a, portrait of a, portrait of a Black, Queer face. And a choir full of Black Queer voices. Treble clef and also bass. That are casting spells to conjure up a big Black and Queer that’s American Broadway. Being Black and queer as American Broadway.
Maiysha Kai [00:00:58] Hey, welcome, Michael.
Michael R. Jackson [00:01:00] Hi Maiysha, thanks for having me.
Maiysha Kai [00:01:02] Oh, my gosh. Oh, my gosh. Like, you know, the theater kid in me is, like, geeking out over this. And, you know, listen, this has been such an exciting year for you. I know that, you know, A Strange Loop has been in the ether for several years. But if I’m not mistaken, you opened on Broadway this spring and brought home the Tony. Your speech was fantastic. I also you know, I got to say, I’m the lifestyle editor here at theGrio, and I love that you were a tribute to Andre Leon Talley on the red carpet. So shout out to that as well. But tell me, like, what has this been like for you this this year, this recognition, and particularly for this piece, which I know had some parallels with your own story?
Michael R. Jackson [00:01:50] It’s been really affirming and validating in a lot of ways, particularly of the importance of taking one’s time in making a piece of art. I spent almost 20 years working on this musical. And, you know, there are many times when I kind of just sort of hung it up. But I didn’t. I kept working on it. And so to be sort of as validated and awarded as we’ve been has been really a nice testament to, you know, the importance of like letting the art that you make take the time that it takes.
Maiysha Kai [00:02:25] You know, I love that because I think we see people right. You know, we see people like you or any number of other names that we’re you know, we know these days and we think, oh, it’s like they just came out of nowhere and it just, like, happened for them. But like, you know, a lot of a lot of us know that for every overnight success, there were like, you know, they were decades in the making. There were there was so much love and pain and tenacity and frustration right that way that, you know, I mean, you know, not speaking for myself or anything, but, you know, because I too have worked on a musical for a long time. So I know I know this particular battle. This is also this piece, you know, a strange loop is unique in that it centered a hero we hadn’t seen before. Right. You know, and you opened this show, you know, like, you know, from the very first number we are introduced to this character who is American. Yes. Black, gay, fat. Right. You kind of like run down this gamut of like marginalization. And I read.
Michael R. Jackson [00:03:37] and class.
Maiysha Kai [00:03:37] And class.
Michael R. Jackson [00:03:38] Some of it’s like I went to grad, he went to grad school.
Maiysha Kai [00:03:42] That’s right.
Michael R. Jackson [00:03:43] He, you know, all these things, I guess.
Maiysha Kai [00:03:45] It’s it’s it’s that’s right. So there’s this combination.
Michael R. Jackson [00:03:47] On this sort of exact intersection. You know.
Maiysha Kai [00:03:50] I love that you said that. Yes. Yes. Because you are. Well, you know, this this character went to NYU. I believe you did as well. Right.
Michael R. Jackson [00:03:58] And twice.
Maiysha Kai [00:04:00] Twice. Exactly. Hey Tisch, shout out to Tisch.
Michael R. Jackson [00:04:04] Hey, hey, Navient. Hey, Navient. Hey. Hey. Citibank, student loans.
Maiysha Kai [00:04:08] Yeah. Good times. I had one of those.
Michael R. Jackson [00:04:12] Yeah, I still have one. I had one last one that I’m paying down.
Maiysha Kai [00:04:16] Oh, my gosh. And what a time to talk about that. We might need to double back, again, the tremendous investment it takes to develop art as well. And, you know, so this this idea, you know, and it’s so funny because because we’re both theater kids. I had this thought to myself that I wanted to approach this interview a little differently than I typically do, which was do a little like word association. Right. So here’s a trigger word. You know, we talk about intersectionality a lot, right? Black people, we talk about a lot the phrase of popularized by Black women.
Michael R. Jackson [00:04:51] I just had her Kimberlé Crenshaw last weekend at a wedding.
Maiysha Kai [00:04:55] Did you?
Michael R. Jackson [00:04:56] Yeah.
Maiysha Kai [00:04:56] Oh, my gosh. Okay. So the movie is strong with this one right now. That’s incredible. But, you know, the fact is, everybody’s living in an intersection. I mean, everybody everywhere, whether they want to recognize it or not, the onus always falls. It seems to be on the most marginalized to discuss their intersectionality. But like this is such a huge part of the story and you even poke fun at it a little bit. So like, can we talk about intersectionality and what that means to you at this at this juncture?
Michael R. Jackson [00:05:29] You know, that’s a really good question because I feel like there was a time when I sort of probably was more inclined to sort of subscribe, like, to using that term in terms of my own life. Like, but I think. As the years have gone by and things have changed for me, I’d start, I’d sort of question it a little bit because I’m finding that my experience as sort of an individual and anybody else in terms of the individual can sometimes diverge from like what we automatically assume any of our intersections mean. And so I find that like I’m always trying to find this balance between drawing a conclusion from I am a Black gay man who whatever, whatever, whatever and like, and what my sort of individual circumstances are. So it’s a it’s a tricky thing. Like, I think, like it’s like the whole conversation. Like I don’t have like a a set sort of association with intersectionality.
Maiysha Kai [00:06:39] No. I mean, I actually love that answer. And I love the way that you took it on in a strange loop, which I spent quite a bit of time with recently, with the, with the music and the that. Yeah. You know, like usually if I’m, you know, if I’m interviewing an author, you know, who’s written a book, you know, I would sit here and I would read the book and take my notes. This was a different kind of project for me that really struck at my heart because I’m both a writer and a musician and I, you know, so I sat with it. I spent time with this music and these words. And, you know, one of the ideas that I think we get also from this character and I love that she talked about intersectionality in that way and that we’re also talking about intersections of privilege, disadvantage and even like, yes, what does it mean to be Black when you talk about intersectionality? Because you challenge that as well, because your character has another another phrase I’m going to ask you to to riff on an inner white girl, which I have one or two or maybe a couple.
Michael R. Jackson [00:07:40] Yeah. Yeah. I mean I mean, and I was just just to double back a little bit. It’s like I think also, you know, I mentioned sort of the class element before. It’s like I think it’s there’s also like regionalism that sort of comes into play. Where are you from? Like who what kind of community, where you race from? I’m from Detroit, but I’m but like I’m from like a very sort of solidly like I was just describe myself as middle, middle class. Like, I wasn’t I didn’t we didn’t have that. And, and, and I had like, relatives who had less than us. So it was and I had a lot of opportunities growing up in Detroit with the parents that I had. We had a sort of like standard middle class jobs, like my father was a police officer who sort of rose in the ranks and my mother was a finance professional at General Motors. And so, like, when I again, when I think of this sort of the intersectionality of it all is I have to factor all of that in there. Like, what did that mean? Like, I went to, you know, the same Baptist church every Sunday that like, you know, was a big part of how I was raised. And so that’s a part of the intersection as well. I went to some of the the best Black schools that we had, best magnet schools in Detroit.
Maiysha Kai [00:08:58] You know.
Michael R. Jackson [00:08:59] Those things are like Cass Tech or the Educational Center. My parents sent me out of the country on exchange programs. Like I had a lot of opportunities that were both sort of usable and unusable at the same time. And so I just I was like, and that’s part of why I’m always thinking about it. But I’m sorry, the question you had asked was about.
Maiysha Kai [00:09:20] Well, I was talking about your inner white girl, but, you know, another word, you know, we can talk about.
Michael R. Jackson [00:09:25] But no, but but the inner white girl, I think is also part of that. Because because my parents gave me so many opportunities to, like, pursue because they wanted to keep me and my brother, like, away from danger and away from getting, you know, wrapped up in any bad elements. So, like, they’re like, yes, you all go to tennis camp one summer and yes, you’ll go to Vacation Bible School every summer. Yes, you will. You know, I’m going to do baseball now. You’re you want to take dance class? Oh, you like acting? You’re going to be. I was in the same all-city and all-city Black chorus form from my seventh grade to 12th grade. And so a lot of my love of arts came because my parents just keeps me busy and they let me pursue what I wanted to pursue. And as and in pursuing that, I came across a lot of music and art that I liked, such as, you know, Liz Phair, Tori Amos, Joni Mitchell and others who helped me as I was starting to come out of the closet as gay as a teenager, as I was starting to try it, I knew I wanted to be a writer of some kind. And but I was didn’t I hadn’t found my voice.
Michael R. Jackson [00:10:35] And listening to a lot of these women sort of really do what they did in this really excellent sort of unfiltered way, opened the door of like, what is possible? Can I do? Can I open? Can I be that vulnerable in front of people? Had I had that much candor. Can I be that raunchy? Can I do all of those things in my own writing? And so they gave me a little, you know, blueprint to sort of follow while at the same time, you know, maintaining my own personal integrity and having my own story and background that I came from. And so that inner white girl for me is is more about that, the sort of the freedom, the artistic freedom that then can, in its own way, become a kind of personal freedom.
A Strange Loop [00:11:23] Black boys don’t get to be cool, tall, vulnerable and luscious. Don’t get to be wild and unwise. Don’t get to be shy and introspective. Don’t get to make noise. Don’t get to fantasize.
Michael R. Jackson [00:11:46] In A Strange Loop the line between art and life is so very thin. And and so and I see this with inner white girl as being a kind of abstract red pill, I guess, or Black pill. I always forget which one of those is. What, cause I only saw the matrix at one time. Like it’s like it was like I’d like I’d tasted an elixir and I, like, step through, you know, door number three or whatever.
Maiysha Kai [00:12:10] I mean, she is kind of the manic pixie dream girl of this whole scenario in the sense of like being a vehicle for this Black Boy Joy, because you kind of idealize.
Michael R. Jackson [00:12:21] And misery.
Maiysha Kai [00:12:22] Right.
Michael R. Jackson [00:12:23] And Black boy misery.
Maiysha Kai [00:12:25] Very fair, you know.
Michael R. Jackson [00:12:27] But like really important. Because he doesn’t have a lot of joy. And so like the only joy he really has is in creating as a way to, like, get out of life, out of the sort of difficulties of life.
Maiysha Kai [00:12:39] And we’ll be right back with more Writing Black.
[00:12:43] Witty. Honest, Entertaining. Introducing Dear Culture with Panama Jackson on theGrio Black Podcast Network. Listen today on theGrio mobile app for all the Black culture debates you don’t want to miss. Also available wherever great podcasts are heard.
Maiysha Kai [00:12:58] Okay, we are back with more Writing Black. One of the things that I do think struck me about the song that you you write about this this dynamic, this dichotomy, rather, is this this idea of like this woman being fearless and being able to express herself in ways that are not beholden to culture or beholden to your parents or beholden to all those things that I know, that you know, those of us who grew up in that I mean, I grew up very similar to you. I’m sitting in Chicago as we speak. So, you know, the whole. Right. And I was born in Minneapolis, so I get it. I get it. You know, Joni Mitchell, we right here, you know.
Michael R. Jackson [00:13:45] So I thought I met your mother, right?
Maiysha Kai [00:13:48] Right. Yeah. You know, so I that that part to me, like my empathy is so strong there in terms of like this idea of what does that even mean? Like this idea of like a particular kind of Blackness, particularly coming out of Detroit, which, you know, from a musical tradition, you know that everybody associated with Detroit and a strange loop is not that like this is you know, I went through this as a musician where it’s like, you know, this idea that as a Black person, you were expected to make, quote unquote, urban music. Well.
Michael R. Jackson [00:14:23] I mean, I think the interesting thing and I guess I haven’t had a lot of time to really break this down in terms of like influences on the show or where I’m coming from is that that’s all in there as well. Because the like if you listen, for example, to the vocal harmonies of the thoughts in a strange loop, that’s all literally because the first music I ever heard was my parents, Motown, the Philadelphia Sound, all of that soul music that is like it so deeply embedded in my soul. Growing up playing gospel music in church every Sunday, you know, for choirs, like it’s all like that’s all part of like my foundation. And so I just always like to share that with people because some people try to, like, get it twisted. I’m not saying that you’re doing that, but that on the sort of the white girl music or. Yeah, or the urban sound, I don’t have any aversion really to to any of that. I just I gravitated to what I gravitated toward in this sort of search for artistic.
Maiysha Kai [00:15:28] I mean, I think I was more referring to the fact that, like, you know, even as as the character Usher says, you know, this idea of like a Black musical, like they want to see us in a certain way, like with our bouffant hairdos and our, you know, these jukebox kind of musicals. But there’s nothing wrong with that. I love a good jukebox musical, but coming at this from such an original approach of, you know, like, for instance, I, you know, I always joke I’m going, my partner always jokes with me. He says, you know, you he’s like, you know, more random white music than any Black person I’ve ever met my life. And I’m like, I’m part of the MTV generation. I’m Gen X, you know? And so I grew up in an atmosphere that was equal parts Motown and Prince and R&B and hip hop, because that’s part of that generation, too. But also, you know, when they wouldn’t play Black people on MTV and and so it’s all like David Bowie and Elvis Costello and like, you know, all that kind of stuff to what I love.
Michael R. Jackson [00:16:20] And like Red Hot Chilli Peppers.
Maiysha Kai [00:16:21] What I love about in excess, right? You know, so what I love about what you’ve done here is exactly that. Like, it’s, it’s like taking a piece for those of us who live in that particular niche of Blackness, which I actually think is, is, as you say, it’s regional, but it’s also generational, too. If you came up in that like older millennial to, you know, Gen-X era where you’re like all these music. All this music is clashing in popular culture with MTV. For a lot of kids. You know, we come home after school and that was like our babysitter for the latchkey generation.
[00:16:53] Big, Black and queer ass American Broadway. Big, Black and queer ass American Broadway. Big, Black and queer ass American Broadway.
Maiysha Kai [00:17:08] You know, I felt like you really hit on something there. But I do I do want to talk about I want to talk about Detroit because I think, you know, again, like what an incredible place to come from, an incredible tradition to come from. You know, you and I both live in cities that were, you know, products in many ways, the Great Migration in terms of its Black populations. And there’s a lot of expectations that go along with that. And your parents play a really big role in a strange loop as well. So like, what was what was that like? Okay, you’re right. Let me not do that. You’re right. You’re right. Usher’s parents, I feel like I heard you. I read where you described it as them, like a caricature of these parents that aren’t necessarily your parents, per se. Yeah, but yeah.
Michael R. Jackson [00:17:57] There are I mean, but also even within the musical, it’s his perception because he’s coming from such a play, a negative space, that everything that you see is just because that’s the almost Instagram filter that he has over his brain until he realizes what he realizes about himself. And so to me, all of the depictions in the piece are both his sort of quest for truth, to show what it’s really like, but also what it feels but what it really is like. It’s what it feels like. And when you feel something is a certain way, it is that way. Like there’s you can’t, like if you like or like the moments when I was in my twenties and I just thought the world was like the world is a vampire. Like, that’s how I felt. And as for as long as I felt that way and saw through those little gardens of everything that’s like a nightmare. Like, all.
Maiysha Kai [00:18:54] Right. All right. Well, we’ll be back with more Writing Black.
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Maiysha Kai [00:19:29] All right, we’re back. Let’s get into it. This is a podcast that we created to really talk about what it means to bring your identity to your craft. Right. And one of the things I think like for me made this such a dream to interview you was that you wrote a musical. That, to me is very much about writing like what this is like. You know, what this particular torture is get inevitable. Because if if you’re a writer, you’re a writer, you just can’t not do it. As torturous as it can be, right that you somehow managed to bring this to the fore in terms of like what this process is actually like and how, you know, your thoughts are your enemies. They’re your allies. They are your, you know, like what what an incredible feat. So I just say that to say congratulations because, like, I don’t know that I’ve seen that.
Michael R. Jackson [00:20:27] Thank you. I appreciate that.
Maiysha Kai [00:20:28] And it is relatable, right. Like people are really responding to this, not just Black people, not just queer people. Not just creative people.
Michael R. Jackson [00:20:39] Yeah, a lot of folks. Well, I think it’s because everybody has their own strange loop. Like they had their own way that they see things until it changes or doesn’t change. You know, everybody has a moment in their lives when they go, Oh, why did I do that? Like, I think it doesn’t have to be about what I sort of went through, but like you had this moment of like I fucked up and like or.
Maiysha Kai [00:21:05] Many moments.
Michael R. Jackson [00:21:06] In yourself about it. And really for many moments, you know, the thing that you wish that was that the spirit on the stairs, the thing that you wish that you had said, that forensic, that French expression. And so and that’s why I think that like so many different people who are not Black, that Black or whatever, are able to find a way.
Maiysha Kai [00:21:28] And I mean, it is it’s it’s opened a door, but it’s also you know, I think it’s important to note that Usher is not just a creator. He’s also a critic. Right. And he’s a critic of a lot of things, but he’s a critic of Black, what we think of as Black culture. Like I think Tyler Perry, word association.
Michael R. Jackson [00:21:53] Tyler Perry, complicated. It’s complicated.
Maiysha Kai [00:21:58] You compared Tyler Perry to Diabetes.
Michael R. Jackson [00:22:00] Usher compared.
Maiysha Kai [00:22:05] You wrote it.
Michael R. Jackson [00:22:07] Usher compared Diabetes.
Maiysha Kai [00:22:08] Okay. You’re okay.
Michael R. Jackson [00:22:11] I was just channeling. The muses sent that to me.
Maiysha Kai [00:22:13] The thoughts came through to you.
Michael R. Jackson [00:22:14] The muses sent that to me through Usher. The thoughts came through. Also, you know, the thing about is it like Usher but and then when he and but when he did that what if what if the ancestors say.
Maiysha Kai [00:22:25] Right.
Michael R. Jackson [00:22:27] Who the fuck Is you nigga? Do I mean like and that’s what I love about that moment is that like he’s not off the hook. He like has his opinions and his little snobbery and whatever here and there and and and his thoughts also which are part of him.
Maiysha Kai [00:22:42] They check him, they check him.
Michael R. Jackson [00:22:45] I’m like, how dare, how dare you? But he also was like, Well, how dare you? You know, like they do Sheree and Marlo in South Africa, I don’t know if you know the reference or not, but that’s like what’s happening. Like Usher is like doing is being Sheree and Marlo arguing with himself about Tyler, which I think a lot of people have this about whoever. Everybody had their white whale that they want to that they want to say, you know. Yeah. And so I don’t know. I think I think it’s I.
Maiysha Kai [00:23:18] Think it’s funny to I mean, listen, you know.
Michael R. Jackson [00:23:20] Interesting.
Maiysha Kai [00:23:21] Anyone can get it right. Anyone can get it. Beyonce is not immune. Rihanna is not immune. Anyone can get it. All right. Well, we’ll be back with more Writing Black.
[00:23:33] Introducing Dear Culture with Panama Jackson on theGrio Black Podcast Network. Bring your friends for the shenanigans and stay for the edutainment. As Panama Debates Culture Wars, Janet Jackson versus Michael. Blackfession, Blackmendations and everything Black. Listen today on theGrio mobile app for all the Black culture conversations you don’t want to miss. Also available wherever great podcasts are heard.
Maiysha Kai [00:24:01] Okay and we are back with more Writing Black. Now you, Usher, this piece have into the very pop cultural lexicon that you or Usher are critiquing. And what is that like?
Michael R. Jackson [00:24:23] You know, it’s really it’s interesting because, again, like, the thing that I can’t impress upon you or anybody enough is that I was not trying to go to Broadway. Like when I started it, like, that was not ever like in my eyes because I was like, there’s no way. Like, when I started working on this piece in 2003 to like, I was like, Oh, this is just something for me to get some feelings and thoughts out. And then as I then I began to morph and change and grow into something bigger than just what was initially my personal experience. I was like, Okay, well, maybe I’ll get like, maybe I can. If I’m lucky, I’ll get like a nice off-Broadway presentation somewhere. And so then when I got that, I was like, Oh, that’s like the feeling. It can never be any greater than that. And so then when it started to go beyond that, like first with the Pulitzer and then going to Broadway and then the Tony, like I was like, Oh gosh. And so watching it all happen, I’m just, like, amazed because I didn’t plan it. It just. It just. I kept chasing after a story and after a loop, you know, to try to figure something out. I was only really interested in the actual artistic exploration for its own sake. And then it just so happened that that then I met up with a professional opportunity, which is sort of reminds me of that thing that like my high school or the, my middle school friends, which I would say that Oprah and everybody says is luck is when preparation meets opportunity. And that was very true. Like, I just had worked on it for so long with my collaborators. And then one day like there was like an opportunity and we were ready to take it.
A Strange Loop [00:26:13] All those Black gay boys I knew who chose to go on back to the Lord. And one Black, lone, gay boy I knew who chose to turn his back on the lord.
Maiysha Kai [00:26:28] As the elders say, you know, if you stay ready, you ain’t got to get ready. But, you know, but the fact is also, you know, 20 years in the making, everybody else who doesn’t have doesn’t get the opportunity or doesn’t find that moment, you know, because it’s you know, we’ve also met a moment. I think this is true of so many Black talents right now who are worthy, who should be seen, who have stories to tell, who have relatable stories or not relatable stories. But there’s still stories worth hearing that we’re finally in this moment, however fleeting, that they’re ready to be heard or people are looking for those stories. Did you feel that that was happening? Did you feel that that was just kind of ancillary to what you were already doing?
Michael R. Jackson [00:27:28] Do you mean in.
Maiysha Kai [00:27:29] The cultural.
Michael R. Jackson [00:27:31] Cultural climate?
Maiysha Kai [00:27:31] Yeah. I mean, things become.
Michael R. Jackson [00:27:32] Artistic?
Maiysha Kai [00:27:33] Binary in many ways, and therefore more expressive Black narratives being told. I’m just speaking of Black narratives right now, but this could be true of a lot of different narratives. You know, I mean, we watch, for instance, in 2020, like there are books that have been out for years that all of sudden were bestsellers like, you know, by like, you know, folks that I’ve admired for ages and been like, Oh, look at that. Nobody saw this book when it came out three years ago, you know?
Michael R. Jackson [00:28:01] Well, I mean, I guess my I guess, like, that’s sort of where, you know, maybe I have to sit with the line. Who knew that intersectionality could be so lucrative? You know, that like but I also think that it’s not new. I think there’s like I went recently to the African-American History Museum for the first time. I’ve never been there. And I went over there over a two day period so I could see the whole main exhibit from beginning to end. And the thing I noticed is that there were lots of sort of periods where there would be all this struggle and then there were be like a ghost of of a, for lack of a better word, renaissance, or there would be something like, oh my gosh, there’s all this like own or whatever or activity. And then there would be, then it would like die down, and then there’d be more struggle, more struggle, and then more of it. And like, and I feel like I just noticed that happens like so many times in periods in history. And so I kind of wonder if, you know, 2019, 2020 is one of those moments and whether we will see another sort of yeah, yeah, recession. A recession, you know, and and but I also feel like, you know, in those moments, those are the moments that like some of the artists, they either are enduring it or they aren’t. And I’m not saying that like that has something to do with their worthiness, but that that that just seems to continue to happen.
Michael R. Jackson [00:29:28] And I think that also happens in other communities that are not Black as well. Like, you know, whatever is happening, like, like, like I remember learning in college that, you know, when there was sort of this existential fear of like the bomb dropping, you got like these plays are like, like Waiting for Godot and and Samuel Beckett and, and, and, you know, Death of a Salesman. And, like, there would be like there was always would be these works that sort of would, like, flourish in the sort of the tumult. And so I, I kind of attribute those patterns a little bit to what you’re describing. Well, and also, you know, obviously, Black folks in particular have we’ve always been pushing to be heard and seen and and all of that. And and I guess for me personally, the question that I had started to really, like, plant my flag in is that or the idea is that for me, being seen is not enough. I want you to think about think about my work and about what it what is what is being seen, what is being said, what is being represented. It’s not enough for me to be like, okay, Black writer, Pulitzer, Tony or whatever. It’s like, What is he saying? Let’s talk about the ideas inside of it and let’s keep talking about those ideas. Let’s argue about them. Let’s compare and contrast them to others. Let’s have there be a rich dialog about what people think. Let there be disagreements, and let those disagreements flourish and start whole, you know, schools of thought, you know, like and have many of them.
Maiysha Kai [00:31:14] All right. Well, we’ll be back with more Writing Black theGrio.
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Maiysha Kai [00:31:32] Okay. And we are back with more Writing Black. What do you want to talk about next?
Michael R. Jackson [00:31:42] So my next musical is called White Girl in Danger. And it sort of comes from like a childhood love of soap operas and white time movies and melodrama in general. And I sort of had been thinking about how I think a strange loop is very much about the concept of I. And I think that white girl in danger at its core ends up being about the concept of we. And there’s relationships between I and we, of course. But it’s I’m meditating on this idea of like representation, equity, diversity, inclusion. What does that mean? What are the implications of that? What happens when you follow some of those implications all the way out? Like when you like you, I mean, and and seen like sort of what happens and all of that lives inside of this sort of soap opera format, which I had a like a deep, lifelong love of.
Maiysha Kai [00:32:43] I’m just gonna leave it right there. I’m more of a like a Dynasty Dallas kid. You know, Knots Landing. Yes. Yeah.
Michael R. Jackson [00:32:50] I mean, that’s all.
Maiysha Kai [00:32:50] Part of.
Michael R. Jackson [00:32:51] That ending. Yeah, that’s all. Know, for me, I was on Melrose. Melrose Place. Yeah, you. You can watch it now on Amazon for free. Yeah, it’s on I think it’s on Amazon for free because I started watching it because I’d never seen it because a little before my time. But I was like a Melrose Place kid, like Monday nights, every Monday night. What is Amanda and Kimberly and Jane and Sydney? What are they going to do? What’s my comment, senior? Peter You know, last year I too.
Maiysha Kai [00:33:19] So the question I ask of all of our guests, but I’m going to tell you, you had me from hello with a strange loop with the usher. Usher, Usher, usher. This urgent calling of Usher, which gave me so much of one of my favorite musicals of all time company. Baby, baby, baby, baby. Who who inspires you? Who do you who who are your influences? We’re going to double back to that. Who are you influences?
Michael R. Jackson [00:33:45] Oh, and it’s so many of them like Aretha, you know, I always call my Trinity, Joanie, Tory and Liz. They’re the the mother, the daughter and the Holy Ghost to me. But then also, like, I’m a huge Clark sisters fan, and that’s a big influence on the music. I grew up across the street from Dorinda Clark Cole for many years. She was my neighbor right up in Detroit. I love all my Motown and my and like the Three Degrees and just all of that sort of stuff, like Reagan and Brown, The Spinners and in musical theater, Kirsten Childs is somebody who’s like, so, so, so important to me. She wrote the musical The Bubbly Black Girl Said Her Chameleon Skin, which premiered at Playwrights Horizons about 18 years before a string suit there. And also it’s a it’s a semi-autobiographical musical about a Black girl growing up in Los Angeles during the civil rights era and into the seventies. And it was a huge touch. So for me, while I was in the midst of developing a strange sleep. So Kirsten Childs and her and her music is unbelievable. So I always highly recommend checking out the cast album online or wherever you get music. Stewart Passing Strange was another huge touchstone for me Bill Finn’s work. He was my teacher at NYU. He did the musical Falsettos and Trousers and putting up the annual Putnam County Spelling Bee. Sondheim is someone who I don’t count necessarily as a an influence, but it’s definitely an inspiration because of his sort of puzzle master qualities in how he approaches songwriting like it’s playwriting. I mean, I can go on and on and on and on. There’s some I take inspiration from literally everywhere, but those are just a few.
Maiysha Kai [00:35:42] I’m so glad that we got to speak to you day because my again, my musical theater heart is singing, singing, I tell you, because you’re you’re actually our first musical theater talent on the show. And so thank you for blessing us. But it’s an honor.
Michael R. Jackson [00:36:00] It’s an honor.
Maiysha Kai [00:36:01] Wait to see what you do next. Michael R. Jackson, thank you so much for coming on, Writing Black and giving us all this like amazing energy and amazing back story to usher and to a strange loop which is extended on Broadway. So good on you. Yes. Yes. If you guys are in New York, come thorugh.
Michael R. Jackson [00:36:21] Check it out, please. Love to have ya’ll.
Maiysha Kai [00:36:23] And we’ll be right back with more Writing Black.
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Maiysha Kai [00:36:57] All right, we’re back. Let’s get into it. So as always, this is the part of the show where I talk about my recommendations and what I love typically related to our guest on the show. And I got to say, you know, one of the reasons it was so, so, so special for me to speak with Michael Jackson today is that there is this really interesting kind of dichotomy that exists in the American theater, which is that while Black people are, you know, maybe not as widely as we should be, but I think widely recognized as the architects of a lot of American music when it comes to the American musical theater, are we are largely absent in terms of credits and, you know, really, really being given the platforms to to tell our stories. I mean, even some of the greatest American musicals that feature Black characters, I’m looking at you, Dreamgirls know, and a few others were not written by Black people, you know, inspired by but not written by Black people. So, you know, as somebody who is a profound lover of musical theater, myself, grew up in that tradition so deeply, admires that tradition, admires Black artistry, Black stories, Black music, Black acting and dancing and expression.
Maiysha Kai [00:38:22] I am always thrilled to champion works by Black playwrights and particularly Black musical playwrights, because I’d love to see more people entering the space. So, you know, I mean, they’re out there, you know, and beyond your big your big box musicals like, you know, The Color Purple. Shout out to The Color Purple and the MJ musical and things like that. They’re out there. And so I’m just going to say, if you love music and you love theater. Look for your Black musical theater writers. Become one if you can. Because it is a genre that is, I think, in desperate need of more of our voices. There’s more coming. But, you know, we belong there as much as we belong in any other aspect of American music. So that’s just me, a songwriter with a dream. We’ll see you next time on Writing Black. Thank you so much for joining us for another episode of Writing Black. As always, you can find us on theGrio app or wherever you find your podcasts.
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