Transcribed: Cameron Blackwell
Completed: 9/27/21
Cortney Wills: [00:00:03] Hello and welcome to Acting Up, the podcast that dives deep into the world of TV and film that highlights our people, our communities, and our stories. I’m your host, Cortney Wills, Entertainment Director at theGrio. And this week we’re speaking with the women behind a mind blowing necessary documentary called My Name is Pauli Murray. It’s in theaters now and will be available to stream on Amazon Prime video on October 1st. Pauli Murray coined the term, Jane Crow, you know, like Jim Crow. But Jim Crow, to describe the unique experience of intersectionality before that was even a concept and wrote a lot about the burden of being both Black and female in America. The impact Pauli made and the legacy Pauli left behind is something everyone should recognize and appreciate. And the fact that Pauli left so much information for us to explore tells me this is just the tip of the iceberg.
The documentary is only 90 minutes and it just scratches the surface of an extraordinary life who made an immeasurable impact on all of our lives and we don’t even know it. Here’s the synopsis. 15 years before Rosa Parks refused to surrender her bus seat, a full decade before the U.S. Supreme Court overturned separate but equal legislation, Pauli Murray was already knee deep fighting for social justice. A pioneering attorney, activist, priest and dedicated memoirist, Murray shape landmark litigation and consciousness around race and gender equity as an African-American youth raised in the segregated South, who was also wrestling with broader notions of gender identity, Pauli understood intrinsically what it was to exist beyond previously accepted categories and cultural norms. Both Pauli’s personal path and tireless advocacy foreshadowed some of the most politically consequential issues of our time, told largely in Pauli’s own words. My name is Pauli Murray is a candid recounting of that unique and extraordinary journey. Pauli struggled with gender identity that is highlighted in the film. Now the argument can be made that maybe there wasn’t the language, there wasn’t the dialog, there wasn’t the understanding of gender issues that we have now that we’re still kind of chipping away at. But a lot of the way that Pauli Murray lived life suggests that maybe today they might identify as they might prefer him and he pronouns. It’s you know, it’s not clear you don’t want to put words in anyone’s mouth, but watch the doc and you’ll understand why even gendering Pauli Murray is a bit of a struggle for me. I’m going to do my best to navigate that throughout this podcast, and I’m sure that our guests will help with that. Talleah Bridges-McMahon is the director of 2016 Black America since MLK. And Still I Rise, as well as this year’s documentary Through Our Eyes. She was a producer on My name is Pauli Murray and she’s one of our guests today on Acting Up, along with one of the film’s directors, Julie Cohen, Julie Cohen and Betsy West are the directing team behind 2018’s RBG, which, if you haven’t seen that, also absolutely worth a watch. And they teamed up again to direct this documentary about Pauli Murray. How are you ladies doing? I have been just fawning over this movie since I saw it a few months ago and thinking about it and thinking about why I didn’t already know everything there is to know about this magnificent hero named Pauli Murray. And my first question for you is, why don’t we know her [00:04:38][274.6]
Julie Cohen: [00:04:38] starting with the hardest question there Cortney. A question that, you know, is almost there’s many, many answers and hard to know which to put the most weight on. I guess we kind of feel like you always have to start with racism, sexism, a natural fear and antipathy towards people who present in a gender nonconforming way on top of that is the fact that Pauli was so far ahead of the times, so far ahead of the curve, so many times. I mean, you know, we talk about an idea whose time has come, but that also implies that there are ideas that maybe society isn’t ready for quite yet. And Pauli, time after time, was having ideas that America wasn’t ready to hear. And as a result, they don’t get absorbed and spread around the culture as much as they should. [00:05:33][54.7]
Taleah Bridges: [00:05:33] I just want to add that Pauli was so ahead of the times that by the time there was a movement for an issue that Pauli had been focusing on, Pauli was on to the next thing. And so Pauli is pushing for racial equality. But by the time there’s the civil rights movement of the 60s that we know about, Pauli has moved on to women’s rights. And that’s at a time when the country when the country is not really having a conversation about that. And so time after time, you just see Pauli sort of just ahead of the curve in a way that leaves us not really knowing what Pauli in those spaces [00:06:05][31.3]
Cortney Wills: [00:06:05] and ahead of the curve. Exactly. And not on one issue that she examined or worked to combat, like on everything. Just the mere idea that at one point it was novel to highlight, you know, the double whammy that is being Black and being a woman, let alone what we learn in the doc, which is that she was raising questions about gender, that we are still trying to wrap our minds around. And to think that she was on to that at that time for me was was so illuminating. [00:06:35][29.5]
Taleah Bridges: [00:06:36] I think it’s really important just to build up of what you were saying. I think it’s really important to point out that probably did not set out to be an activist. Right. Pauli was just a person trying to live a life. Pauli wanted to be a writer, probably had other professional interests, but it was really in Pauli living a life and hitting up against all of these barriers that Pauli starts to focus on this issue and all these different issues. So it’s really when we talk about it as intersectionality now, there wasn’t really a word for it in the same way during Pauli’s time. But it’s that Pauli is a person who certainly can’t do things because Pauli is Black. Pauli can’t do things because people are saying Pauli as a woman. Right. And then ultimately, it’s clear that Pauli is a person who is gender nonconforming in that time. And people have biases based on that. And so it’s really Pauli hitting up against all of these barriers that really makes Pauli focus on them. You know, and it sort of it is that real life experience that makes this such an acute issue for Pauli. And that’s how Pauli ends up ahead of the time. [00:07:32][56.9]
Cortney Wills: [00:07:33] And when you set out to illuminate and examine a life, anyone’s life, but a life like this, how do you even start? Because, of course, this documentary left me with so many feelings, but none more paramount than needing to know more. [00:07:47][14.1]
Julie Cohen: [00:07:47] That’s great. And there’s so much more to know than what’s in the film. I mean, there is actually something quite overwhelming about Pauli’s life and everything this person experienced and had to fight against and overcome, and then also everything that this person achieved and all of the really fascinating intellectual insights we could have all just like curled up in our beds and not being able to move forward with making this film. But instead, like, if you take one episode and look at like, oh, what an amazing story in nineteen forty three when Pauli and some Howard Law classmates and Howard undergrad classmates decided like, we’re going to try to desegregate a restaurant on U Street in Washington, D.C., and how they sort of very step by step the way a strategic way. Pauli did everything, how they managed to do that and succeeded like a great piece of a story that can be told as a story. So kind of I don’t know, I’d say piece by piece is how we told them. [00:08:46][58.6]
Taleah Bridges: [00:08:46] I think that’s exactly right. We had to decide very early on that we were not telling the definitive story of Pauli Murray. What you said is exactly what we were aiming for, which is we want people to become interested in Pauli and go out on their own and learn more and even more. People want to make documentaries about different aspects of Pauli’s life or do scripted films or a limited series, plays all the things we want people to become interested in. Pauli and we say, Pauli, you get the same treatment as like a Martin Luther King or JFK and people of that stature. Pauli’s life is just that rich. [00:09:19][32.8]
Cortney Wills: [00:09:19] Absolutely. And, you know, that’s funny because, number one. Yes, like, I feel like we should be learning Pauli’s name in kindergarten and first grade when we learn about MLK, when we learn about Thurgood Marshall, when we learn about desegregation, like those images and realizing like not only was she a part of it, but kind of in a large way, like the impetus of it, like the key to unlocking how to desegregate these schools. She’s a huge missing link from that story and recognizing what happened when Julie made another film, RBG, you know, same like I have a Ruth bathing suit now. You know, there’s coffee mugs and like stuff in my house with her face on it, she’s an icon that wasn’t new, but I think taking her rightful place in history and the masses recognizing her impact, I can see that happening with Pauli Murray. I hope that that does happen with Pauli Murray. It probably should happen with Pauli Murray. [00:10:16][56.6]
Julie Cohen: [00:10:18] Yes. Is that too short an answer? [00:10:21][3.2]
Cortney Wills: [00:10:24] I want to talk about the fact that this story hasn’t been told, and I kind of want to understand what it has taken to get it told and and particularly Talleah and Julie. What was important to you and Julie? What did you do differently when attempting to illuminate the life of a Black woman versus Ruth Bader Ginsburg or any other subject, like what was unique in that task and what unique obstacles, if any, did you face in trying to get this made and out? [00:10:51][26.6]
Julie Cohen: [00:10:51] Yeah, I mean, I think, you know, when you’re making a documentary, you should always listen. But I think in this case in particular, because, as your question suggests, my experience is sort of padded by so much privilege and such a different life experience than Pauli Murray, that the main thing, the sort of starting base of like how do we join to tell this story was to listen to Pauli’s words. We’re fortunate that Pauli actually wrote a number of amazing books, both memoirs, a family history and incredible poetry. But maybe even more than that, that in Pauli’s unbelievably rich archives, we’re about 40 hours of audiotape of Pauli speaking. And in this just unbelievably penetrating voice, both sort of like the way that writers use voice of like, oh, you know how Pauli’s talking. But just like Pauli’s literal voice is incredible to listen to and is very like a kind of staring you straight in the face voice. Like when we listen to those tapes, you could just feel how much Pauli is speaking to be heard and wants to be heard by those with a multitude of experience. I mean, maybe I’m just like I like it feels like maybe I’m just saying that, like, it it feels like you’re listening to a voice who’s trying to tell you something across the years, in my case, across racial lines perhaps, and get across gender or class or life experienced lines, just like I want you to hear me. [00:12:28][96.3]
Taleah Bridges: [00:12:28] And I think, you know, it’s like we can’t overstate how important it was for us to really paying attention to Pauli as a full person and not to project our own ideas about what the person in life experience would think or believe. And so for us, we were really fortunate that Pauli is a person who is living in a different time period than us, who I will say had underlying everything that Pauli was doing was this deep faith and the promise of US democracy. Right. Pauli is time and time again saying this country is built on this idea that we can all live here equally. And this is where you you and see, this is where you, whoever you are, wherever she is finding this, wherever Pauli is finding discrimination, this is where you’re falling short. And here’s a way for us to bridge that gap. And so I will say, as a person growing up in my time period as a Black woman growing up now, I don’t know that I had the same faith. I don’t I didn’t exist with the same faith in US democracy because I had a different context for understanding this country. And Pauli was really driven by an optimism born not that far beyond slavery. There’s still a generation of Black people who are like, we have overcome this huge barrier and we have to keep going and going and going. And that has always existed generation to generation. But for us, it was very important to not project our notions about what a Black person, a person in the south, a person who was assigned female at birth, all sorts of things, a person who is gender nonconforming, what their life experience would be, and really just focus on letting Pauli tell us and guide us along the way. When we were able to find the Pauli made so many recordings and the not just the archive, but we had an intern who stumbled upon Pauli recording the autobiography. After we made the film, we knew that was ultimately going to be the spine of how we would tell the story. [00:14:27][119.0]
Cortney Wills: [00:14:28] Walk me through a bit about what it was like to get your hands on that footage, on those archives, on that audio. Is there more how long did it take? You know, how did you kind of sift through all of that? [00:14:38][10.4]
Julie Cohen: [00:14:38] So it was a combination of things. I mean, the most of the material that’s in the film comes from Pauli Murray’s own archives, that’s at the Schlesinger Library at Harvard, really put their very saved very specifically by Pauli, given to Pauli’s grand niece with the instructions. Please make sure this all get. To the Schlesinger Library at Harvard, who I’ve already contacted, and it’s all set up with the idea that later scholars, thinkers and perhaps filmmakers would use this material to build a life story. So we reached out to the family very early on to find out if they would give us permission to first look been used in a film. This collection, which very fortunately they did. I don’t think we would have gone forward with this project without that. Just there wouldn’t have been a way to do it. [00:15:32][53.3]
Cortney Wills: [00:15:32] I mean, even saying obviously she knew that maybe we would catch up one day. Right. But even now, I feel like I stumbled it when I say she because after I see the movie, I don’t know if that feels like what Pauli Murray would want me to refer to her as. So where do I mean, where do you land on that? And should we even be thinking of that? Should that be of importance? Should that be a major take away of her story? In one vein, I think, like, wow, absolutely. Like this is another example of what we said earlier. Like, this is not new. This was a thing. It’s not trendy. It’s not New Age. Like people have been grappling with these questions of identity and gender forever and how important it is to point that fact out. And then the other part of me is like, is everyone going to overlook so many other facets and parts of her life and contributions, the Pauli Murray made because they are completely distracted by the gender issues. And, you know, is the what do we call Pauli Murray like a not that important question at this point. [00:16:35][62.9]
Taleah Bridges: [00:16:35] So our thinking on this has really evolved over the course of making this film. It’s important to say that everything we understand about Pauli grappling with gender identity comes from the archives. So Pauli made these records intentionally. I will say as a person who spent a lot of time, days and days going through the materials, the archives that we see is curated. So there are some things that like the diaries, their pages that are ripped out. There are names that are blacked out. And so it’s very clear that what we are seeing is what Pauli wants us to see. And so in that way, I think we would be doing Pauli a disservice if we were to, for some reason, ignore or dismiss this aspect of Pauli’s life. And in releasing the film is starting to have these sorts of conversations. We trust our audience. And so far we’ve been proven right that people are taking in all of Pauli. So it’s not like any aspect of Pauli’s life has overshadowed any other aspect. I think it is really the totality of Pauli as much as people are learning from our film and even what they’re learning beyond that, that is what is making Pauli so compelling. It is the full story of Pauli’s existence. And so we’ve been excited actually to have people really engage in that conversation and we wouldn’t know. That’s that’s actually important to acknowledge. We don’t know what pronouns Pauli would use. Pauli was really limited by the language and understanding that existed in Pauli’s lifetime. And we think it’s really important for us not to limit Pauli in that same way now. [00:18:03][87.9]
Cortney Wills: [00:18:04] So right now, for me, as I speak about Pauli Murray, like what feels respectful, like what feels appropriate to say, he she. They. [00:18:10][6.8]
Julie Cohen: [00:18:12] So you know what this is this is tough, and you might notice to and I both try and we kind of try to just call Pauli because that’s a name that we know that Pauli very much self selected, always given birth name on records and in a signature was a.. Colleen and Pauli, quite early in life, chose the name Pauli and felt really comfortable with it all along. So we feel pretty good about that. It’s hard to know what pronoun Pauli would have chosen had Pauli lived in our current era. Obviously, it was not a thing when Pauli was still alive and sort of talking this through with various trans and non binary people, including those in film. The ACLU trans rights lawyer Chase Drongo, who’s who’s in our film, actually said when when I asked him that question, just like, you know, not not as part of the film, just saying, hey, you know, he said some trans people use their name as their pronoun and that might be a good thing to do with FOIA. And we were like, yeah, that you see that it’s not that easy. It’s not that easy to do in conversation, right? [00:19:19][66.8]
Cortney Wills: [00:19:19] No, it’s not that easy to do. Even even as I attempted. It’s it’s got to be a conscious, you know, figuring it out. But I think it’s important and I think it’s important to be able to have a space where you can ask that question without worrying about offend, you know, being offensive or insensitive, like it’s OK to not know the answer and be attempting to figure it out. There was a point in the film where we’re seeing and hearing kind of the arguments in the logic that Pauli had about desegregation and then figuring out ways she wasn’t the one that won that case. Somebody else got credit for that. And then you you know, we get to a moment where I think you said it was Thurgood Marshall, but correct me if I’m wrong, who basically, you know, said to Pauli, like, hey, thanks for the tip. You really worked out well, kind of thing. That really served as a basis for us navigating this issue. And I wonder I wonder if she felt validated or if she felt real pissed off that she didn’t get the credit. [00:20:21][61.4]
Taleah Bridges: [00:20:21] I think that’s a good question. I think I was I was a person that was pissed off on my show when I when I heard the story. And, you know, just one correction. It wasn’t exactly Thurgood Marshall who makes that comment. It is the professor that probably had it. How a guy who had access to Pauli’s graduate paper that is reframing the approach to ending segregation. So Pauly’s paper is saying what the NAACP, what with the current approach has been, is to make sure that the separate but equal clause that we live up to that by making everything equal. So like the Black schools should have what the white school has and is saying, actually, we need to attack the separate. Everything will be inherently unfair and unequal as long as we are separated. And so it really does create this shit. Right? It’s a revolutionary idea at the time. And it’s Pauli ‘s professor, Spottswood Robinson, who has access to this paper and is on the lever Brown versus Board of Education later when they’re grappling with how to attack this issue. And they say, you know, Spottswood ultimately says to Pauli, Oh, by the way, are your paper. It was really, really came in handy. And there’s no record, right? I mean, when Pauli is telling we hear this story and Pauli’s words, when Pauli is telling the story, Pauli seems vindicated. Maybe I would probably say I’m satisfied that finally that Pauli was right and that the idea actually had an impact. And I would say I can’t. It’s hard for me to gauge. I don’t know if Dooley has an opinion on this. It’s hard for me to gauge how much Pauli cared about having credit for each idea. I think to some extent everyone would love that sort of recognition. So I don’t want to minimize what actually happened there. But I think Pauli still seemed to have taken satisfaction in the idea that this concept actually made it into the world and made a difference. I think most invested in that. Yeah. [00:22:19][117.1]
Julie Cohen: [00:22:19] I mean, it almost sounds like to my ear there’s a somewhat amused tone of voice, but not but with a little edge to it, like, oh, we you know, he told me my paper was really helpful. Like like I feel like you can sense a combination of pride and, you know, some righteous irritation, like a little [00:22:41][21.8]
Cortney Wills: [00:22:41] shade from Pauli Murray from beyond. Tahlia, I know that you were one of the women of color who worked on this project. And I wanted to know if you felt any particular weight or any particular responsibility in the representation of the story, in the handling of this story, particularly at a time where Hollywood at large is being, I think, held accountable for telling our stories. And also for helping Black people to tell Black stories, and this is a story, I think, that is not isolated to being relevant to the Black community, but she certainly is one of ours. And so putting that story in a Black person’s hands feels like a minimum. Now in twenty twenty one, if you’re going to tell this story, there better be some people of color helping you tell it. So now that we see I think some of those asks and hopes and desires and changes happening, like what does it actually look like and feel like? How do you navigate that? [00:23:44][63.3]
Taleah Bridges: [00:23:45] So in introducing people to Pauli, there’s a huge responsibility in that. And always in the back of my mind was like, are we going to get this right, whatever right feels like? And it doesn’t mean like does it feel for me? It’s like the bar isn’t necessarily. Does this feel this is a ring true for Black people necessarily? Because Black people as a whole is sort of like we are a multitude. We have a range of experiences, so we are not a monolith. But like, will it feel right to the people who knew Pauli? That was the thing that I had in my life. More than anything, our responsibility here is to be true to Pauli. And so I was really mindful of that. And then there were things along the way. I will say that as a Black person, I’m like, oh, we have to put that in there, because this really resonates with me. Right. And we had a Black editor, our editor, think we know who is extraordinarily talented. There would be moments where we would cut a scene and we were like highlighting certain things. And maybe Betsy and Julie were like, we’re not quite sure why is this thing like that? And we would just be like, Tristesse, there’s a certain part of your audience. This is going to think that this is awesome or they’re going to or is going to resonate. It’s going to land in a very particular way. And some things work. Some things were dark, some things weren’t so great. But then some things were like Pauli’s relationship with the Black students at Brandeis University, where Pauli really had a bond with them. The way in which we decided to tell that story was because the editor and I had also had similar experience, like we could really relate to what that connection would be like being Black students in a predominantly white space. And so, yeah, there was a lot that I inherently would bring to the table. And I should say that I worked with Betsy and Julie before on another project years ago. And so I had a faith going into the project that they were people who listen because I had already had that experience with them. And so it felt like if we were all like, it would be a true collaboration. And so that was really important to me. [00:25:56][131.0]
Cortney Wills: [00:25:56] And Julie, was it important for you to make space for to Leah to to be able to do that? You know, to kind of understand that there might be nuances, there might be a point that Pauli made that like just didn’t resonate with you the same way that it might for her, like she said, and your ability to be like, yeah, maybe I don’t know that. But she does. [00:26:14][17.9]
Julie Cohen: [00:26:15] Yes. I mean, and and maybe in some instances not where one might expect. I mean, one instance that does jump to mind involves those Brandeis students who were kind of mimicking what Pauli had been like as a tough love kind of teacher, mentor figure and sort of acting out like, oh, you know, she would smoke. And then she would say, like, now you listen to me, Negro. And we were like, oh, I don’t know what my reaction was like. I was like, is that funny? Is that OK to say like and like like they’re like so we were like, trust us. They were like that was instead with so much love and not just like that. And actually that’s that’s a moment that really means something. And like, yes, it should be in the movie. It’s like definitely an example that comes to mind. [00:27:08][53.5]
Cortney Wills: [00:27:09] So I love that example. Julie, did you or Betsy ever discuss or did you feel any trepidation, particularly in this climate, of of any potential backlash or criticism to have to white women helming a project about a Black woman? [00:27:25][15.8]
Julie Cohen: [00:27:26] Yeah, I mean, and honestly, it’s perhaps something that even shifted over the course of the time we were working on this project. This is something that we started this project in twenty eighteen coming right out of our BGI where this story had a very organic connection to our BGI because of, you know, the attention that that film had gotten. It kind of put us in a unique position where it was going to be possible to get the resources to make a film, a biographical film about somebody who’s not famous. So, you know, it was a question we asked at the beginning, like, should we even do this? At the time, we were like, yeah, but, you know, and truthfully, when we started the we weren’t sure what we were, you know, like, is this going to be a short or like it was like Pawleys stories that are like, whoa, this is actually a full feature film. But this three years has been a lot has happened. You know, of course, Black Lives Matter was around before we started this film, but the amount of attention to that and just like to be completely frank through the awareness of white people of that movement and not so not so much on the police brutality side, but on the like, how are we all living our lives in the professional world and personal world? Yeah, question. [00:29:00][94.1]
Taleah Bridges: [00:29:01] I just want to add to this. I do think it’s important to point out that it is not easy to get funding for a film about Pauli Murray and that needs to be acknowledged there. Betsy and Julie, we’re in a very unique position coming off of our big to be able to have enough people and entities that actually had resources to put behind a film like this. But it’s not like this is an industry that is clamoring that may be changing. Now, I feel like on the whole, that remains to be seen. There are promises for the most part. I don’t know that we’ve seen a lot of action behind those promises. But in twenty eighteen, this was not an easy sell. And so my hope is and my hope going into this is that it will be easier once Pauli is more well known for people from other communities and backgrounds to tell their own version of Pauli Murray. [00:30:01][59.4]
Cortney Wills: [00:30:01] Or to my next question, which was for Jolie, which was do you think that it took you and your success, the success that you had with RBG, to push this project through? And was that decision, in a way, kind of a bit of activism, like using your platform and your position to push through a story that probably, you know, I doubt you could be the first person who’s ever thought of doing something about Pauli Murray, aside from like the racism and sexism and weak attention spans of the public. There was probably some other factors, too, that have kept this story under wraps for so long. So were you using your powers for good purpose knowingly? [00:30:45][43.3]
Julie Cohen: [00:30:46] Well, I mean, you know, it’s hard to look like your true selves just to just say yes. I mean, certainly that was our own answer when in asking questions like should we? And I to be honest, when we when we first met with Tomoya about the possibility of this project, we did not do it in the spirit of like, hey, do you think, Richard, do you think it’s OK for us even to do it? Although it is a question that yeah. Ourselves, because it felt like actually a completely unfair position to put like. So, you know, yes. Our our general, our thought in our head was like, oh, but no, it’s totally a worthy project to tell Pauli Murray story. It’s not like we’re coming up with the words to tell the story with Pauli has put some words out there to be listened to. And we did go to Pauli’s closest living relative who felt pretty secure, that telling the story is something Pauli would have been uncomfortable with. [00:31:54][68.2]
Cortney Wills: [00:31:55] So I could talk to both of you all day. But I have to let you go soon. So I want to end by asking you each. After spending so much time hearing Pauli’s voice and examining her life, like if there was if you had one more hour, you know, on this project, if you had one more story or one period of her life to just all the way dove into what what would it be? What left you like, oh, my gosh, this is really, really the thing that sticks with me. [00:32:25][29.7]
Julie Cohen: [00:32:25] Poetry is what sticks with me for sure. Pauli’s poems are amazing and like they’re both sort of beautiful and evocative, but also real lessons. I mean, like a one one of the ways, like Pauli’s poem Dark Testament, is almost like Howard Zinn’s whole books. But in like in like I don’t know what a tiny percentage of the words, just like going through a whole look at American history in a deeply insightful but also really heart piercing kind of way. [00:32:55][29.1]
Taleah Bridges: [00:32:55] So I would say for me, it’s like from a storytelling perspective, you have to keep the movie going. Right. But if we could have spent more time immersed in Pauli’s childhood, I think we would understand probably so much more because Pauli came from a really rich. Verse Family Black, Family, Durham, that sort of people’s conventional notions of class and even of race, some of them could pass for white and they did. Pauline, who raised Pauli, could pass for white but didn’t because she was Black, committed to Black activism and B and because poverty came from a family that was really entrenched in both education and racial justice, it really helped to shape who ultimately became. And I think if we could have explored that a little bit further, that would have been awesome. [00:33:46][50.7]
Cortney Wills: [00:33:46] Me too. And that jumped out at me. I didn’t get a chance to get to it in this interview. But the color, as I’m looking at the pictures of her family and being like, whoa, like that is a pass like that. Is that a Black person? And then you hear like, yes, these are her these are her family members that really blew my mind. And I couldn’t help but thinking that’s another way that she was marginalized, whether that was by her by her own family or by the Black community. It’s another thing right now we talk about colorism in a very small way that is like lighter skinned people have more privileges and darker skin people. That sucks the end. But we never really talk about what that experience does to the light skinned Black person. And I thought, damn, like she was in on that, too. And what did she say about it and what did she say about being privileged and still being extremely passionate about the oppression of your own people, even if you’re a little better off than most of them? I run into that now activists, now celebrities, people who people tend to listen to about issues, also criticize them because they say actually the issues that you’re talking about don’t really apply to you. You’re rich or your life or you’re famous. And that’s something that I haven’t really seen tackled. And I did. I wanted to know more about what Pauli felt about that. So that’s really interesting. Thank you for sharing that, both of you. Thank you both for joining me today on Acting Up. I love this conversation. I absolutely love the project. My name is Pauli Murray. Everyone listening. You’ve got to check it out. This is like not a suggestion. It is a must see you going to be behind. You are going to feel way left in the dust if you don’t figure out who Pauli Murray is and fast. So thank you again both for joining me today. It’s been a pleasure. [00:35:31][105.4]
Taleah Bridges: [00:35:32] Thank you so much for having me. [00:35:34][1.1]
Cortney Wills: [00:35:39] Thank you for listening to Acting Up, if you like what you heard, please give us a five-star review and subscribe to the show wherever you listen to your podcasts and share it with everyone you know, please email all questions, comments and suggestions to podcasts@theGrio.com. Acting Up is brought to you by the Grio, an executive produced by Cortney Wills and produced by Cameron Blackwell. For more with me and acting up, check us out on Instagram at ActingUp.pod. [00:35:39][0.0]