Transcribed by: Sydney Henriques-Payne
Completion date: October 6, 2021
DCP EP 84: Black AND Armed—The Pro-Gun Movement for Black People
Gerren Keith Gaynor [00:00:03] Welcome to “Dear Culture,” the podcast that gives you news you can trust for the culture. I’m your co-host, Gerren Keith Gaynor, Managing Editor at theGrio.
Shana Pinnock [00:00:12] And I’m your co-host, Shana Pinnock, Social Media Director at theGrio and this week we’re asking, “Dear Culture, how do we unpack the relationship between the Black community and guns?” Before we get into the show this week, G, I have so many questions, what is on your mind this week, my dear?
Gerren Keith Gaynor [00:00:31] Oh, Shana, Shana, Shana… I’ve been really perturbed this week because there are two stories in red states. No surprise there, from Republican governors, that really shows just the continued… the continued pervasive like anti-Black, pro mass incarceration [mentality] that we often see from the GOP. So in Alabama, the governor, Kay Ivey, she is about to sign or has already signed a bill that would procure $400 million of COVID money — not to reduce the impact of COVID in her community and her state; not to address mental health, that has been more complicated because of COVID and the pandemic; but, to build more prisons, she is using these funds to not only build three new prisons, but to provide better infrastructure, in her words, of existing prisons in Alabama. And you know, we know the the the complicated history of prisons and and how essentially it’s just slavery 2.0. And… and just to give our listeners a little of some stats about this: in Alabama, Black people make up twenty-eight percent of Alabama, but they make up forty-three percent of the jail population and fifty-four percent of those in prison. So in jail, 43 percent and then in prison fifty-four percent. That is a huge, disproportionate number of Black people in prisons. And so, when I hear “I want to use COVID money to build more prisons,” I think I hear, “I want to use COVID money to put more Black people in prisons.” And obviously, this has upset a lot of people. And just — if you thought that that wasn’t enough — in Missouri, we have the case of Ernest Johnson, who is set to be executed because of a murder…he murdered three people and advocates, and even the Pope, and Congresswoman Cori Bush have asked Governor Mike Parson to stop and halt this execution to allow Ernest Johnson to serve life in prison as opposed to being executed. And this is because while we can have a debate about whether or not Ernest Johnson deserves to remain behind bars, the reality is that he, his IQ puts him at the mental capacity of a 10-year-old. He is deemed intellectually disabled and the idea of putting someone– committing someone to death— who likely doesn’t even remember what happened during those murders…[and] doesn’t have the capacity to understand what is about to happen to him… It just feels really inhumane, and it really makes me upset because the United States, we often, you know, when we pledge allegiance, you pledge allegiance to God. We always bring God into everything and this doesn’t feel like anything that God would…would sanction. I don’t believe God granted us the power to decide who gets to live and who gets to die, regardless of what we do. And when you have the Pope of all people… like, the Pope in recent years has changed the Catholic Church’s position on on capital punishment. And there’s a reason, because when you… If you have a conscious, if you say you believe in God [or] you believe in compassion, this isn’t the way to go, and it really just frustrates me that this is the position that we often see from the GOP because they talk about life when it comes to abortion. And we’ve talked extensively about the abortion bill that came out of Texas. And here we are having a discussion about life. But it seems like when it comes to Black life, especially lives that, who are behind prisons, that their lives don’t matter as much. And I believe that we should have a more…more equality when we talk about life. And it just really it really frustrates me because I have obviously not a proponent of capital punishment, and I’m also not necessarily a proponent for, uh, prisons, although I think that if you are a danger to society, that there should be… you should be in prison, at least for a period of time until it’s… to allow you the ability to have rehabilitation. But for someone like Ernest Johnson, who is not a threat to society, at least not anymore, it just feels really inhumane. And I think that what’s happening in Alabama– of building prisons– and what’s happening in Missouri in terms of like we treat the prison population is very connected, is very anti-Black, and we… It makes me really ashamed to… to be an American when I see these type[s] of policy positions throughout our country.
Shana Pinnock [00:05:40] Well, I mean, for me, none of that surprises me, which is actually really heartbreaking, when you really think about it, um, that I’m not surprised that.. It’s… nothing about that shakes me to my core because Alabama’s, going to “Alabama” and Missouri’s going to “Missouri” in my mind. And I think it just speaks to… there has got to come a time in which we, as a collective people are sick and tired of the GOP’s hypocritical nature. I don’t know. I don’t, I don’t really know how we how we move past that, you know, outside of eradicating the whole thing…but, you know, speaking of hypocrites [sigh], you know, the hip hop industry and really the music industry, just in general, tends to… shield, so many hypocrites and so many predators, and a lot of the times I’m feeling like they are one in the same. And this, I’m talking about just a few things that have disappointed me. Last week, R. Kelly was convicted, finally– facing many, many years in prison for essentially sex trafficking and the abuse of women, girls and some, you know, young boys and men. Chuck D, one of the legendary members of hip hop, posed a question on his Twitter that I get very… I’m going to read what he wrote. So, he wrote “Abuse in his youth…an addict as an adult, ike Turner served 18 months in prison. Rick James did similar time. I came out a changed positive human being. How long should R. Kelly spend in prison, and does a USA system give a man a chance for a man to change his world around?” Reading that and trying to…I’m [going to] use a Mean Girls’ reference — trying to “Make ‘fetch’ happen” is so annoying to watch because again, we… are we forgetting? R. Kelly had the opportunity for change. You know, when R. Kelly had the opportunity for change? — When he impregnated, Aaliyah. R. Kelly had the opportunity for change when her parents made them, you know, annul that marriage. R. Kelly had an opportunity for change when the videotape first came out. R. Kelly had an opportunity for change when he was acquitted. None of those things happened, and up until that man got sent to the clink [he] was still doing harm to our community. Why are we so? Why? What? What is this redemption story that we’re looking for? I don’t understand it. And while I can empathize with R. Kelly’s story…R. Kelly’s history of himself being abused of all of the things that is going on, you know –all of that. I can empathize with that, but what I will never do is allow… [pause] Is make excuses for someone who has been harmed, who has turned around and decided to do harm to others. It’s ridiculous, and it just reminded me of KRS-ONE and Afrika Bambaataa. Afrika Bambaataa has been… [sigh] he has a long history of potentially molesting young boys throughout hip hop time, and I remember this…this interview, I think it was on “Drink Champions,” that KRS-ONE did that…where he says, “For me, if you keep it hip hop, nothing can be taken away from Afrika Bambaataa. Nothing. Just keep in hip hop. But if you want to dig into dude’s personal life and accusations that [are] being made and so on…personally, I don’t give an ‘F’. Look, if somebody was harmed or whatever, y’all got to deal with that ‘ish. Deal with that, That don’t stop hip hop. That don’t stop what you did for hip hop. Are you kidding? What? I don’t care… Listen, y’all keep trying… Y’all keep trying to take these contributions that these, these men have made to the culture and make that… As it precludes them from any kind of critique, it precludes them from being any bit of held responsible. It’s disgusting and it’s sick. And, in that vein, The Source.com …and I understand why you did it, but even still, wishing Russell Simmons a happy birthday… I see what time y’all are on, good luck with that. But that’s all my thoughts. That’s all I have to say, G.
Gerren Keith Gaynor [00:10:27] Oh, hip hop. You know, one thing about hip hop is that while hip hop is…as a culture, has done great things for our culture, it also does harm. And, I’ll leave it there, but speaking of harm — you know, a conversation that often, when we talk about harm, is guns. But, I think it’s important for us to have more nuanced conversations about gun ownership, because not all people who own guns want to cause harm. And, I really want us to challenge people to talk more about guns in a more healthy way, because gun ownership among Black Americans is on the rise. Just last year, during the height of the protests following the murders of George Floyd, Breonna Taylor and Ahmaud Arbery, the President of the National African American Gun Association (NAAGA), said that the organization was receiving two thousand membership requests per day. And that’s a lot. And what’s more, the FBI says that they saw a seventy-seven percent increase in gun related background checks in 2020. And as the numbers soar, we’re seeing efforts to change the narrative around who has the right to bear arms and what it means to be a lawful gun owner. This week, we’re joined by Damon Finch, the Northeast Regional President of the National African American Gun Association (NAAGA). We’ll talk to him about his organization’s mission and get his thoughts on this growing trend. So let’s get into it. So, Shana, let’s talk about Black people and guns. Now, obviously, we know the Black Panthers. I think some people sometimes forget that the original name of the Black Panthers was “Black Panthers for Self-Defense.” And, at the center of this organization was… they were proponents for gun ownership. In fact, one could argue that they were the first gun rights advocates, and they taught people how to properly use guns. They advocated for Black people having a gun to protect themselves. They often walked around, you know, we famously see these Black Panther images of them carrying rifles, being at state capitals, which ultimately led to, you know, California passing a law that… that… that…that stopped them from doing that, they made it illegal to have a gun on state grounds because of these images. And you know, I personally, I don’t own a gun. I grew up in a household where there was a gun. I don’t care to own a gun, but given the history of, you know, Black people in America, it makes every sense why one wants… wants to own a gun. And we saw the NRA, actually know… By now, we know the NRA’s an organization that is for, you know, gun rights, but during the times of the Black Panthers, they were actually anti-gun. They want that gun regulation because, for some reason, the idea and the image of Black people with guns put so much fear… and then– and even now, I would suspect — puts a lot of fear in some — I’m not going to say all — some, white people because I think that white people continuously hold on to this hysteria that Black people will someday seek revenge; that Black people will do to white people, what white people did to Black people for centuries, and you know, it’s a… It’s a really interesting dynamic when we think about guns and you know, we… we…have the issue of gun violence where especially in our communities, we are plagued by gun violence. But then you have people who just believe that it’s important to have the right to bear arms, which is our Second Amendment, right. And so, while on a personal level, I might not be pro-gun, on a policy level, I support it because, if white people can own guns, so should Black people and we should be able to bear arms in the same way that white people do. But Shana, did you grow up in a house where there were guns? Do you own a gun? Would you own a gun?
Shana Pinnock [00:14:49] So, my Dad did have a gun. Myself and my mother have never seen it. He apparently still has a gun. I don’t know where that man hides that. That’s not my business. It’s not my business at all. My grandmother, you know, she lives by herself in Florida. My grandmother has a ton of guns. She is a… she, she goes to the gun range. She is very fluent in, in gun ownership. Now, for me, myself, personally, if we could get every single gun and I mean, like from the military, from the police, from these white people, from Black people, from these gang members, everything and just melt them all down and just never see another gun again. That would be perfection in my mind. However, we don’t live like that and I’m moving to Georgia soon… so, you know… being, I, I personally have two reasons of, um, as soon as I get to Georgia, I will be purchasing a gun. I will be applying for a gun license as well as a concealed carry license. And my two reasons are one, because I’m a woman and because I’m a Black woman. You know, for… and I and I know that especially violence against women, which — it can be from a partner, it can be from a complete stranger; It can be from a maintenance man, you know, shout out to, you know, rest in peace, Miya Marcano, like all of these things. But the idea of living in the south with white people who we’ve seen how ugly they’ve become over the last few years, especially as it has anything to do with race relations. Yeah, I’m not going to get caught slippin like that. So, my goal is to get educated on guns. I don’t need to own an AK-47 or anything like that. Give me a cute little baby gun I could put in my purse [laughs] and I’m good. But I… I in all honesty, I admire gun owners from the perspective of, again — you’re not here to just own a bunch of these guns that can kill a lot of people in a short amount of time. No, no, no – you’re here for the education of gun ownership; you’re there for protection of your family and protection of your person. So, I’m all for it. Second, you know, Second Amendment… “Second-Amendment-me.”
Gerren Keith Gaynor [00:17:18] Well, I’ll just quickly say that I don’t want to own the gun really ever, and I take the position more of MLK… Some people might not know that MLK, while he advocated for civil disobedience and nonviolence. He was a proponent for guns and then changed his mind. I’m going to just close out reading this quote from MLK. And that is, “I was much more afraid in Montgomery when I had a gun in my house. When I decided that I couldn’t keep a gun, I came face to face with the question of death, and I dealt with it. From that point on, I no longer needed a gun, nor have I been afraid.” That’s one position, but we also are excited to introduce today’s guests who can share a bit more about gun ownership in the Black community. Damon Finch is the Northeast Regional Director for the National African-American Gun Association and the President and Founder of the Hudson Valley Nubian Gun Club. He has worked in public safety since 1989 in various roles from serving as a United States Air Force security policeman to working in the private sector as an executive protection specialist. He is also a New York State Department of Homeland Security master instructor and an NAAGA firearms instructor and also an EMT. Damon, welcome to “Dear Culture!” It’s a pleasure to have you.
Speaker 3 [00:18:38] Thank you for having me. I’m extremely excited for this and it’s just an honor to step into this realm of people who hopefully are similarly minded in expressing just information out to the public.
Shana Pinnock [00:18:52] Absolutely. So, as G said, thank you so much for joining us. I wanted to just really kind of start off with… let’s lay the groundwork, right? So, can you talk to us specifically about the history of like, Black gun ownership in this country? You know, there are definitely obstacles for Black folks to encounter gun ownership over time. You know, the whole idea of Second Amendment rights and bearing arms, et cetera, et cetera. If you can give us just a little bit of a little historical clarification about Black folks and gun ownership, that would be great.
Damon Finch [00:19:30] OK, great for us to really talk about gun ownership in America. We really have to talk about just, just history in and of itself. In the fourteen hundreds, when the Chinese alchemists —fancy word for religious chemists– tried to create a substance that was trying to make men last forever. You know, we right now in today’s times, we have the creams, exercises, the little snippet here, a little snippet — we try to live forever. The problem was that that substance exploded and gunpowder was invented, which then just changed the entire trajectory of the military arts, also known as martial arts. People such as the Samurai, the Knights, the Templars, the Zulus and the various Egyptians — Various cultures who have trained in military arts their entire lives for either personal protection or to feed their families, can now be taken out from, from this one technology called the firearm, where a person a quarter mile away with zero training was able to change the whole balance. Obviously, less than one hundred years later, we have the so-called story of Columbus coming to America. And then, of course, two hundred years later, in sixteen nineteen, the beginning of that slave trade, you know, dealing with the Middle Passage and people using greed and free labor to try to own other human beings as that technology moves through time, people of our time eventually said, you know, it’s time for us to defend ourselves. And then, of course, prior to that, we were defending ourselves, but we didn’t have the technology necessary. Leading all the way up to today, you know, we…we have the Black Panther Party of the past. You’ll have the Deacons of Defense who actually was the protectors of Martin Luther King, and so forth. OK, yeah, the firearm — it’s a tool. It’s a tool, just like anything else. A spoon, a fork, a knife that is used initially to feed your family, and also, God forbid, if someone is trying to hurt you, —defend you. We were taught after slavery that it was not OK for us as people to defend ourselves. We were taught that… if…if we were together, collectively talking about protecting each other, we were considered a gang. Me, growing up, originally in New York City, the only people who possessed guns was cops, bad guys and 16-year-olds on a roof, you dig? And the reality was, I wasn’t 16 at the time, so I really wasn’t experienced in that world where there are people of other cultures. where at age three, four or five years old, you know, they’re given a rifle, they’re given a shotgun, and mom’s dad is teaching them about that world. So now, as adults, we think it’s taboo. You know, we think it’s… It’s scary just to say the word gun in public or something is going to happen to us or someone’s going to think that we’re some kind of crazy person that, you know, going to try to rob a bank or another person or something along those lines. The history of firearms in America really stemmed from the point that, just like any, any species, you need, the tools necessary to defend yourselves or history will always repeat itself. So, with organizations like the National African American Gun Association established in 2015, Mr. Smith took a look at that, he looked at, took a look at the need of more education for people when dealing with firearms, and created this great organization that we’re here to talk about today.
Gerren Keith Gaynor [00:23:14] And Damon, I want to…you kind of laid this out very beautifully and I love how you refer to guns as technology, which I don’t think is a language that we often hear when we talk about guns. And, there are likely a myriad of reasons why Black people decide to purchase a gun. To own a gun. And from your expert vantage point, what would you say are the driving or the driver of Black people purchasing guns? Is it to protect themselves? Is it for hunting? As I know, I have family in the South who love to hunt. What do you think is the reason?
Damon Finch [00:23:52] Obviously, I can’t speak on behalf of all people, right? One thing about the beauty of the African-American or the Black community is we just come from all, you know, just all spectrums. However, the patterns that I’ve happened to notice that people are looking for firearms, obviously employment, if that’s your trade, such as law enforcement security, you’re protecting your business…Other people for personal protection. People traveling late at night. Individuals going from point A to point B, worried about individuals trying to break into their home or they need to protect their family. And then, of course, you have sport— sport hunting individuals, might go target shooting, or just like the feeling of —just like someone would play golf, someone would play dart — they would like to play with that firearm in areas where, where it’s obviously legally allowed to do. One of the things that I’ve noticed over the last couple of years was a significant amount of Black women. I believe they said over the last year, 58 percent of Black women are the gun owners, at least the new gun owners that’s been taking over this, this beautiful sport that, that we’ve been running here. So, so, so… there’s obviously various reasons why people would be interested in owning a firearm, learning more about a firearm. As you may know, there’s many states where there’s no training that’s required. And the beauty of our organization is, we specifically think about how can we not only help people get that that tool, but then train them, how to properly use it safely, with intelligence and calm and understanding the local laws of what you can and can’t do, God forbid ,you’re in a very dangerous situation.
Shana Pinnock [00:25:50] So, yeah, and this is going to be an interesting question because the NRA, right throughout the years, especially the NRA, has seemingly been a very… The NRA is not for us, in my opinion, right? Is, it’s, it’s,… it’s, you know, we’ve seen them take no action as it related to gun control after Columbine, which I think I was a Junior in high school — No, I was in junior high school, so middle school when that actually happened. Sandy Hook, we saw children being killed, like, elementary school children. There were no…. there was no outcry from the NRA as it related to Philando Castile, who got killed after he was, you know, said to the officer, I’m legally carrying a firearm like this. It’s on my person and there is, there was nothing. What are you… what are your thoughts on, I guess, Black folks’ complicated relationship with the NRA? Like, should we be joining them or should we just be, you know, sticking to our National African American Gun Association and that’s it? Like, what should we be doing?
Damon Finch [00:27:05] You know, just like the question of what are you wearing on your feet? Are you wearing high heels? Are you wearing sneakers? And why do you wear your high heels versus sneakers versus sandals? It’s ‘to each his own.’ It’s what you’re most comfortable with regarding what is your “why?” If you’re looking for getting state certifications as an example, right now, the NRA is recognized in many states as a certification that will allow a person to get their pistol permit. Meanwhile, other organizations don’t have that same ability to do so. If you’re interested in the politics of organizations like the NRA, that’s one conversation. If you’re interested in the training that the NRA gives regarding firearm safety and use of force and things along those lines. That’s a different conversation. I tend to stay away from the politics of an organization that claims that they’re a training organization. I have various positions on the history of, of, of… that organization. I myself, am a member. I’m a training counselor with them, also. However, my loyalty is more tied to National African American Gun Association because it only makes sense to take care of my own. So, it’s you know it’s…if it’s about the politics of an organization, they have the way that they do things, we have the way that we do things. And, I feel closer to following the template that the National African American Gun Association follows over on the other organizations.
Gerren Keith Gaynor [00:28:50] And another complicated part of this discussion about Black people and guns is something that’s very obvious and Black and brown communities, and that is gun violence. Black people are disproportionately impacted by gun violence, we’ve been seeing a rise in not just crime, but gun related crime in the US and particularly in certain cities that are concentratedly more Black. And so, I want to ask you, like, how do we balance this issue of gun violence in Black communities while also having this discussion about empowering people to own guns and properly use guns?
Damon Finch [00:29:28] That’s a great question. Obviously, it’s a complicated question. We can spend days, months or even years talking about that. When we do talk about things like Critical Race Theory. People get scared. For you to talk about the future, you have to take on the lessons of the past; and [one of] the lessons of the past, is if you have a system that is keeping individuals from earning, first of all, a living, you’re now going to prison by age… two or three times… by age 23, 24. And now you’re finally want to do better in your life and you can’t find a job, besides stepping in to the alternatives such as drug dealing and prostitution or whatever other things that lead toward going back to prison. Yes, they may use the tool illegally to try to forward themselves, but there are other situations that cause this violence as an example, was it three times? There are three times more likely to be killed by the police than any other group of people. OK. Situations where there are, there are less mediation programs, less community restorative programs within the African-American community, less opportunities for a job. And if you do start getting a job, once you hit a financial level, all of a sudden they will take away your opportunities to feed your family, which then sometimes forces people to… so, for… as they claim… “do what they need to do to survive.” Conflict resolution there’s many organizations out there that… that focus on conflict resolution and educating people, that there’s alternatives to using that firearm to deal with whatever the problems are. And then, of course, you have people who try to blame music as if it’s the music’s fault, as if it’s the guns fault, as if it’s the leaves are falling off the trees fault. It’s summertime’s fault. It’s the South, it’s the North. Not enough air conditioners, you know. That’s just excuses. The truth is, we have a system that that that has to be fixed, that came to fruition, that people started to notice more after the horrible thing that happened to George Floyd, where with with the Black Lives Matter movement and the communication that’s out there where people are now saying, “Hey, let’s take a look at the system as a whole instead of just blaming the assault weapons or the other revolvers or the semi-automatic guns, or saying that okay, if a person has 11 bullets instead of 10 bullets we’re less likely to die.” It’s making excuses. Instead of figuring out solutions to fixing the challenges that, that we’ve been dealing with since we’ve been in this country.
Shana Pinnock [00:32:21] And, I mean, just from a personal note, I mean, I’ve noticed the last few years like and granted that was because of a lot of things that were happening from a political as well as cultural landscape, you know, Trump —and in that situation and –Right, you know, —and and seeing, you know, there’s been a… I mean, we’ve always known that there is a level of evil, right, as it relates to race relations and things of that nature, especially in this country. And there were a lot of things that were hidden beneath the surface that he,… he went and scratched right to the right to the forefront. And so, one thing that I clearly remember, especially last year around the height of all of the racial injustice, marches and things of that nature were seeing groups of white folks with their guns and such. And there, you know, marching for their rights to be white and [babbling] and “white is OK” and all this other stuff. And I distinctly remember I wish I could remember the actual story of the town, but there was one March that was planned with all these white folks with their guns, and it was obviously in an attempt to intimidate the, the inhabitants of the community there. And we saw, like Black militia groups coming out of the woodwork like with their own, you know, they were like, Listen, we can make chopper sing if you want to, like, you know… What’s going on here, I guess, what are your thoughts on that? Like, is it just another one of those things of, okay, well, we could show you that we got these guns too? Or should we be doing something more? Should we be, you know, hitting up legislation? And… and I mean, I think it’s… it’s fascinating to think, you know, open carry in California was a thing. And so the Black Panther started walking around with their guns, you know, like, what should we be doing as a… as a culture, as a community? And, hell, should we… Should we be working to eradicate guns altogether? Like, is that going to be the way to stop, you know, all of the gun violence and random shootings and everything else that’s happening? Like, do we need to start showing like, where? Oh, no, so, all the Negroes are buying the guns, so now you can make legislation about it. Like what…I’m, I’m so confused, as to what are the…what are the proper steps that we should be taking as a culture, as people?
Damon Finch [00:34:59] Can you repeat the question?
Shana Pinnock [00:35:00] Oh, sorry!
Damon Finch [00:35:07] No, nah,nah, I’m playing, I’m playing
Shana Pinnock [00:35:07] It’s a loaded question, I apologize [laughs]
Damon Finch [00:35:10] Alright. Obviously, there’s a lot there. When you start talking about what happened in the last administration, obviously tribalism came out at its best where you want to call it racism, prejudice, whatever the -isms that it’s out there, tribalism truly existed. People…some people just wasn’t used to being stressed. We’ve been stressed. We’ve been dealing with that. That’s …that’s nothing but a Thursday to us. Us being on lockdown, us dealing with COVID virus, dealing with whatever the issues are of the time, that’s just another day of the week for people like us. Other people, you know, marching up and down the street because they can’t get a haircut, they claim, all right. But let’s be for real, OK– buy flippers, get a Flowbee, you know, you can work that out. Obviously, it wasn’t about getting a haircut. Obviously, it wasn’t about that. It was about the fact that for the first time, they didn’t have their so-called ‘freedom’ that existed. They didn’t have the ability to move as…they chose to, and everything became conspiracy fueled by one group of individuals. And, in the same conversation, they exercised their constitutional right of freedom of speech. The beauty of this country is, you can hate as many people as you choose, if you choose, as long as you don’t take away the rights of other people. Then you have other organizations that then showed up and that were counter-protest in their conversation, as you indicated, showing up with their firearms, OK , NFAC Group, or something like that, I think the name was. OK, I might have said the name wrong, and I apologize if any members are listening, right? But they also had a constitutional right to state their position. Once again, as long as they didn’t take away the rights of others. They… It was freedom of assembly, freedom of press freedom to disagree with the government, freedom of travel from point A to point B; and they did it unapologetically, OK. They communicate on a different wavelength than our organization, that we’re not saying it’s OK to do that or not to do that. However, they do have a constitutional right to carry themselves that way. However, the root to everything we’re just talking about here is, you know, the reality is, I wish guns never existed. However, it exists. All right. If they never existed, who knows, you and I might be on one of those, you know, watching the beautiful sunsets of Africa and just enjoying nature at its best and dealing with whatever it is. You know, I enjoyed that Black Panther movie and seeing what it could have been, you know? And however, that’s not the world that we’re in. The reality is you have people who came from where there is abundance and then you have people who came from areas where supplies and food and everything and weather conditions were extremely harsh. And they taught their children their perception of survival of the fittest, which was “take from others and be unapologetic about it.” We don’t come from that. A lot of people are so scared of African-Americans having guns because they’re so concerned about us being revengeful and we don’t want revenge, we just want equality. We just want to be left alone. You know, we’re not… when we’re in a group with our firearms, we’re not conspiring to take down a city or state or town or… or run through a federal building, screaming, “Kill the Vice President.” That’s not how we move. That’s not even how we think, and it’s not our frequency. OK. What we do is we, we, we we get together. Something interesting happened recently with our local gun club. I’m the president of the Hudson Valley and Nubian Gun Club in New York, and we went to a mostly Caucasian shooting range recently. And many of our… of our members are mostly Black, Hispanic, and people of color. And, but these guys were very nice and allowed us to shoot at their range as their guests. We’re at the range we’re shooting, you know, we’re doing our thing. And then I happened to look over to the right of me, and I see many members of the other club just standing there with their mouths open. And I’m thinking it was…they must be tripping out because they’re watching how we move.
Shana Pinnock [00:39:50] Mm hmm.
Damon Finch [00:39:50] But they were really tripping out because they were watching how we move. We’re playing Eric B and Rakim while, you know, shooting guns, you know, we’re, you know, one guy is quoting Miles Davis while shooting the firearm, you know? You know, we’re moving to a whole different frequency. You know, people bopping their heads, singing lyrics to songs…while shooting at the range, just having a good time and laughing. We’re not, you know, we’re not focusing on shooting silhouettes. One of my pet peeves that… that I have when I go to many of these shooting ranges is the silhouettes are shaped like bald Black people. Yeah. And I said, “No,” I, “We get we need to change this. Give me the color green. Give me anything but that silhouette.” You know, I’m not allowing you to put into your psyche, while I’m present. OK? In your subconscious, that…that every time you see that silhouette that looks like a relative of mine, it’s OK to aim center mass at. And some people hear my message. Others they, you know, they get offended, but it is what it is. The beauty of our organization is we’re unapologetically about who we are. A person who asks us, “What are we doing to reach out to other communities to bring them into our group?” We don’t. The Italian club doesn’t do that. The Korean club doesn’t do that. All right. What we do is, we’ll talk about our agenda. You’re welcome to come to our world, like we… like any anything else. They can come to our nightclubs. You can come to our house parties. You can come to our shooting ranges. All right. You know, we don’t exclude people, but we’re not going to go out searching for you. What we say is, “if you want to come into this world and learn more about this world, the doors are open”
Shana Pinnock [00:41:40] Hah! Message,
Gerren Keith Gaynor [00:41:41] Like the church, the doors are open, right?
Damon Finch [00:41:44] The doors are open. Come in. Message! You see even that. What other culture would have understood that?
Shana Pinnock [00:41:53] Don’t even get the references, chile.
Damon Finch [00:41:56] You know, it’s no matter what your age is you got, it. You know, so, that’s what we’re about. It’s… it’s having a good time, having those good laughs learning, but also being ready that ,God forbid, if someone tries to bring it, you’re in a position where your family can still survive.
Shana Pinnock [00:42:15] So, my final question to you– You know, you touched on Black women. You’ve seen this, this uptick in, in my sisters out here trying to protect themselves. What is your advice to women? You know, like myself, like, I’m going to be moving out of New York soon. I’m going down to the South. I’m like, one of the first things I’m doing is getting a gun. Some men are crazy. These white folks are a little bit, you know, they’re losing it a little, a little out of touch. What is your advice to, especially to women, looking to own guns? Also to people, I guess in general, who, kind of like Gerren, who are a little bit pacifists who are like, “No, I don’t really want to touch the…the gun aspect.” Like, what would you say to them?
Damon Finch [00:43:03] To answer that question, you have to once again go back to your why. What is your reasoning? Is it personal protection? Is it… is it employment? Is it traveling? Is it for home protection going back to being a person who is anti-gun or against guns? OK, that’s great. You should be. All right. If you’re comfortable with that you know, there’s nothing wrong with that. There’s many trainings that we do without guns: What to do if stopped by the police. What to do if there is a medical emergency. What if someone next to you gets hurt? How do you deal with that? There, there are many classes that we teach where we use training guns or simulation guns or whatever else. “Shoot, Don’t Shoot” scenarios. I would say for both groups of individuals, start with education. Just sit on a firearm safety class. Peep the difference between what the media says versus what the reality of gun ownership is. More people die from suicide than gun violence. OK, so it’s… it’s… it’s… not like how they make it seem. Like, people running up and down the streets, shooting other people with these, with these firearms. It’s very rare when a licensed, law abiding gun owner uses that… that firearm for… for violence or, you know, to hurt other people in any way. So, I would say you really start with just take a class, sit in a class, OK, if you’re in New York, I’ll give you a class. OK, not a problem. It’s…there are many instructors out there, whether you’re talking about NRA, USCCA, NAAGA and so many other organizations out there that’s here to give you education. Compare. Hear what one group, says hear what another group says, and if both they’re saying something that’s similar, that’s the direction to go. Step away from that, the male chauvinist that says, “Well, you’re a woman, this is what you need to do” versus — speak to other women that are like minded that may also have similar travel, business opportunities as you and, you know, communicate with them. Have a day where you and ladies will come to the range and we’ll sit and educate you on. — If not, me, another instructor — on just what the right things to do with that firearm is. And going back to that person who may be so against firearms, just remember, it’s simply a tool. A tool. Like anything else. A car in the wrong hands could hurt others, same as a firearm.
Gerren Keith Gaynor [00:45:46] And going back, Damon, to , you know… this, this conversation around image, the image of a Black person and a gun and the stereotypes that continue to prevail as it relates to gun ownership in the Black community — How do we change that narrative, that stereotype, — so that we can have more, more full conversations about gun ownership in the Black community
Damon Finch [00:46:10] Doing exactly what we’re doing here. Having this conversation, speaking to people —it’s interesting. When I first created Hudson Valley Nubian Gun Club a person says to me, “I really don’t want to have a picture of me taken and put on a website,” and I said, “Why not?” “Oh, well, because I don’t want people to know I have a gun.” And I said, “I understand that, but we’re more of a social and education club than a domestic violence outreach center. We’re all about letting people know about our brand.” NAAGA. is 40,000 people deep. Our gun club, we have, in one year, over 200-and-something members and we want to let people know that we’re here –we’re here to educate you. Because, there’s a lot of people that have firearms that it just don’t know what to do with it…that they’ve never been in range. They they feel uncomfortable going into certain types of gun stores because the people in a store doesn’t look like them. They’re scared to ask questions. You know, something as simple as if you say, instead of calling the thing that holds the bullet, a “magazine,” If you call it a “clip,” the whole room will yell at you. We don’t do that. You know, I know what you meant. You know what you meant. So, let’s discuss it. So, to change that narrative, it’s really about having these conversations so people can see that the individuals who are these gun owners are doctors; they’re dentists; they’re lawyers; they’re musicians. OK, They’re, they’re, they’re… professionals. That’s the person delivering your mail. That is the person that you know… that.. that… that’s your therapist. It’s not just the street thugs, that’s that that’s going around robbing people. It’s not just police officers, even though many of our, of our members are also coming from security and law enforcement. But, but the narrative is just… Just educating people that it’s just like having a hairbrush. OK, it’s just like having a suit. It’s just like getting your hair did. It’s just another thing to do on a Saturday, Sunday, Monday or whatever else you want to receive training, sit in the class or just carry it from Point A to point B.
Gerren Keith Gaynor [00:48:20] It’s a tool. I’ll keep that in mind. Well, Damon, thank you so much for your expertise. I think that you have educated, not only me and Shana, but our listeners. We really appreciate you dropping that knowledge and — to see more of theGrio’s original reporting on the surge in Black Gun ownership in the wake of last year’s racial uprisings, head to our website WWW Dot theGrio dot com.
Shana Pinnock [00:48:52] We want to remind our listeners to support your local Black businesses and donate to your local organizations and religious institutions. The business that we will highlight this week is, Bridal Babes. Bridal Babes is a Black owned, woman led boutique for brides and bridesmaids specializing in providing gowns and accessories. Co-Founder Ashley Young says she created the boutique with her husband Charles, after she had a difficult time finding the perfect dress for her special day. The boutique caters to folks of all beautiful shapes and sizes, and they even offer virtual consultations for brides and bridal parties. To learn more about Bridal Babes, visit their website WWW dot bridal babes that co. That’s B R I D A L B A B E S dot CO. You can also follow them on Instagram at Bridal Babes (@BridalBabes). The group has published a list of 50+ Black businesses to support during the coronavirus pandemic. If you would like your business to be featured, email us at Info at theGrio dot com that’s G R I O dot com.
Gerren Keith Gaynor [00:49:51] Thank you for listening to Dear Culture. If you like what you heard, please give us a five star review and subscribe to the show wherever you listen to your podcast and share it with everyone you know.
Shana Pinnock [00:50:00] And please, email all questions, suggestions and compliments (We love those!) to podcasts at theGrio dot com. The Dear Culture Podcast is brought to you by theGrio and executive produced by Blue Telusma and co-produced by Taji Senior Sydney Henriques-Payne and Abdul Quddas.