Transcribed by: Sydney Henriques-Payne
Completion date: February 16, 2022
Shana Pinnock: [00:00:03] What’s up Grio, fam, welcome to Dear Culture, the podcast that gives you news you can trust for the culture, I’m your co-host Shana Pinnock social media director for theGrio, [00:00:10][7.2]
Gerren Keith Gaynor: [00:00:10] and I’m your co-host of Gerren Keith Gaynor, managing editor of Politics and Washington Correspondent at The Grio. And this week we’re asking Dear Culture. Is it time to return to HBCUs? [00:00:20][10.0]
Shana Pinnock: [00:00:21] All right, Dear Culture, Fam, as we continue to celebrate Black History Month this week, we’re hyped to talk about historically Black colleges and universities, better known as HBCU. [00:00:40][18.3]
Gerren Keith Gaynor: [00:00:41] That’s right. As you all know, Shana and I both attended HBCU, Spelman College and Morehouse College, respectively, so we’re both well versed in today’s topic. And you know, we know the good, the bad and the ugly, but mostly the good [00:00:55][13.4]
Shana Pinnock: [00:00:56] and mostly the monthly. But yet today we’re talking HBCU history, HBCU culture. Some common challenges from their funding to bomb threats and some of the most significant stats. This is a topic that’s near and dear to our hearts, so I’m ready to dive in. You ready? Let’s go. Get a. OK, so let’s walk through some history and background like give me, I already know it, but give me, give us, give the listeners the HBCU origin story. [00:01:33][37.2]
Gerren Keith Gaynor: [00:01:34] So I like to say that all roads lead back to racism, so we have to go before we can talk about HBCUs. We have to remember that Black people were not allowed to read and certainly were not allowed to go to college. So let’s go through some historical facts and seventeen ninety nine. Washington and Lee University admitted John Chavis, who was noted as the first known African-American to attend college. But the first African-American to have earned a bachelor’s degree from an American university goes to Alexander Twilight, who graduated from Middlebury College in 1823. It wasn’t until eighteen sixty two that Mary J. Patterson was the first African-American woman to earn a bachelor’s degree, graduating from from Oberlin College. But these are all one of us. To be clear, these were a solo Black students pursuing their education, not mass groups of Black people graduating from college. [00:02:28][54.1]
Shana Pinnock: [00:02:29] That is right, and in fact, it wasn’t even. And so Richard Humphreys established the African Institute, now Cheyney University in 1837 than an HBCU even came into existence. Its mission was to teach free African-Americans, you know, all the skills for gaining employment, and most early HBCU Jews were established to train teachers, preachers and other community members. These schools had to be founded because segregation disallowed Black folks from attending, you know, the white, the white folks college. But the majority of HBCU originated from 1865 to nineteen hundred and largely through the efforts of Black churches with the greatest number of HBCU started in about eighteen sixty seven two years after the Emancipation Proclamation. More were founded after the second moral act of 1890, which required states, especially former Confederate states, to provide land grants for institutions for Black students if admission was not allowed elsewhere. And now look at it, there’s a hundred and seven HBCU, but [00:03:30][60.8]
Gerren Keith Gaynor: [00:03:30] even though there are only one hundred and seven, the culture of HBCUs runs pretty deep from Spike Lee’s school days in the late 80s, which gave a look at life on an HBCU campus to the fictional Huxtable family from The Cosby Show, whose family attended Hillman College, where the show a different world took place. There was even a spike in HBCU enrollment in the year the show ran, according to the New York Times, from the debut of The Cosby Show in 1984 until the end of a different world. In 1993, American higher education grew by sixteen point eight percent, and during the same time period, historically, Black colleges and universities grew by twenty four point three percent. Forty four percent better than all of higher education, even leading the way. Mentorship program Hillman Grad Productions is named after him in college. [00:04:22][52.2]
Shana Pinnock: [00:04:25] That’s a great name name. I mean, for me, I remember, you know, Black actors, especially listen, we grew up in a really dope time, right? So prime time television, if you are watching it, it was, you know, a lot of UPN, a lot of you know, yeah, what was going on. But you know, so much on primetime. There were so many Black actors who were wearing HBCU gear like I remember seeing Will Smith and you know, and Fresh Prince of Bel-Air and living single. Like you said, The Cosby Show, a different world. Even Martin, you know here where you ain’t go to. Nobody is nobody what be talking about. But I mean, Loki. All right. So y’all know I’m a Beyoncé stan. So we have to talk about the now iconic Coachella homecoming performance inspired by HBCU culture, specifically HBCU homecoming culture. So for those of you who don’t know, HBCUs are known for their bands. So Bey’s Coachella music was curated like an HBCU band performance. Go ahead and watch it is still on Netflix, and the choreography paid homage to majorettes and Black marching band culture. The dancers were outfitted in costumes that paid homage to Black Greek letter organizations. I mean, it’s, you know, shout out to my source. All of it was phenomenal. And I know numbers had to be going up again after that. And of course, I mean, how you can’t forget the vice president of the United States, the first Black woman to ever hold this position, went to an HBCU shout out to Howard University. [00:06:05][100.5]
Gerren Keith Gaynor: [00:06:07] Yeah, yeah. Shout out to Howard. [00:06:08][1.1]
Shana Pinnock: [00:06:12] hater-ation. step back. But you know, let me know, how were you introduced to HBCU and why did you decide to go on to go to one? [00:06:20][7.9]
Gerren Keith Gaynor: [00:06:20] That’s a really good question. And. I actually had never heard of a for you, I had never heard of Morehouse until a family friend, he got a full ride to Morehouse College. I was, I believe, a junior or a sophomore and junior in college. I in high school and I remember hearing Morehouse College full ride Black men’s college. I’m like, Really? That exists. So I had it on the internet. I went to more house’s website. And then I discovered that Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. went to Morehouse. Spike Lee went to Morehouse. And I’m like, Wow, a hall, a school just for Black men. But then also, it was the fact that Morehouse was located in Atlanta, Georgia. And at that time, I was really navigating my identity as a Black queer young man, and I didn’t have gay friends in high school. All my friends were straight. I didn’t have like a tribe of like minded Black teens at that time. And so part of it was part of it was also wanting to go somewhere where I could find people like me, where I can create a real actual brotherhood. And obviously, I did not know the the breadth of of the HBCU culture, and obviously I fell in love with it. You know, I always say that going to Morehouse was the absolute best decision I ever made in my life, hands down. Morehouse was so profound that my dad, who didn’t go to college, he became like a huge Morehouse proponent. We took a tour to Atlanta when I expressed that I had interest. We just drove. We just we didn’t make an appointment. We drove from my grandparents house in North Carolina. We got to Atlanta and we just showed up at the admissions office was like, “Hey, we’re from New York. You know, he’s like, my son wants to go to Morehouse. Like, can you show us around?” And ever since that tore my dad’s love with Morehouse, and I always have a special connection to Morehouse, not just because of the the word. This word we always use and HBCU means the matriculation and through Morehouse, but also because it was so special to my father as seeing me graduated from Morehouse, he said, was the proudest moment of his life. And he died just a few months after I was able to obtain my degree from Morehouse. So I will forever be indebted to Morehouse for the man I am today. But it also just reminds you that these are just really special, but same question for use on. How did you first become introduced to HBCU? [00:08:59][158.5]
Shana Pinnock: [00:09:00] Well, you know, we talked about it on this show before. For me, it was A Different World. So when a different world premiered, it was the year I was born. When the show was over, I was like five, five, six years old. And I just remember even like as young as, like five, six, seven, like watching these reruns and being so enamored with everything that I saw. Like, I knew I was going to go to somebody Hillman College. And I was going to be I was going to be like, Cool and fly is as Whitley. But, you know, I had like my dark skin sort of situation in Kim. But Kim also had a cop for daddy, so it was a complicated situation. It’s a complicated situation. But you know, I remember telling my mom, you know, I’m going to go to Hillman College and my mother’s like, “that does not exist. However, where Hillman, Or rather, we’re “A Different World” was Filmed. It’s actually on the Spel-House campus,” and a lot of people don’t know this is so funny because it’s a different world is based off of like Hampton University right here in Virginia. And there’s this whole thing, blah blah blah. But where it was actually filmed, like, there are a lot of scenes that I’m looking at. I’m like, “Hey, this is the chapel I know.” Like, there’s a whole there’s a different type of pride, like knowing that The Pit was actually The Grill or, you know, all of those types of things. And what’s so funny is, I remember growing up in New York City, so and again being born and raised in New York City and being surrounded by Black and brown folks, basically my entire life, all the way up, all the way up to college. I distinctly remember when I was making the choice to that… I that I wanted to go to an HBCU. So my top choices were Spelman. They were Howard. It was FAMU. Oh God, with no shade to FAMU. But I can’t be in Florida. I realize that now. Hey, I can’t be a Florida person, I think was my fourth. And. I can’t remember which one was my fifth line from when I’m born, so and I distinctly remember, you know, I had a white teacher who who I love and I’m still in communication with to this day and I’m glad and I’m mainly because I could prove her wrong. You know, she said, “Why would you go to an HBCU like, you’re limiting yourself? You’ve been around Blacks and Latinos your entire life, like you’re not going to get any kind of diversity.” So what girl? Clearly, you don’t know know better. Because if you go to a Spelman College, a Morehouse College or Howard University, any of the one hundred and seven HBCU the fact is is that you’re going to come across Black folks who are from all types of socioeconomic demographic. I didn’t know we have a rich, rich Black people like them, Jack and Jill, folks. My God. Oh, right. Oh, y’all got money left? Yeah, OK. You know, I’m just from middle class New York. Like, there are folks who are from Middle America, which I didn’t. I was like, Black people live in Utah. What’s going on here? You know, you’re meeting people internationally, you’re meeting people with all these different types of interests and and everything. And it is such a a rich culture. And then, you know, I remember there’s one episode of a different world that Dwayne, his friend, his childhood friend, is trying to convince him to leave Hilman and go join a PWI because he’s like, You’re not going to get the same access, you know, and end opportunity that she would if you go to a Harvard or Yale or whoever. And I remember Dwayne asked Whitley, like, did you go like, did you apply to other schools? Like, did it ever occur to you that to go to Harvard or Yale? And Whitley tells about her, her grandfather, who told her, like, Listen, you can go to any school in the world, but a place like Hilman is never going to love you and nurture you and and look out for you the way that the faculty and staff of an HBCU do. And I’m telling you, from my Black professors to my white ones to my Latina ones, they cared. They cared, and I’m I am so grateful. Well, y’all can’t see me if you’re listening to the show, but I am currently wearing one of my favorite sweatshirts. This as the Black of the college. The sweeter the knowledge. It is absolutely true. I. Oh, listen, you don’t get me to talk and I’ll be out here all day. I love. [00:13:41][280.7]
Gerren Keith Gaynor: [00:13:41] I love that I love. I also have to echo, you know, just how the love and support that you get from the faculty and staff at HBCUs. And it leads to this question of why was it what we thought it would be when we decided to go to an HBCU? I can speak for myself that choosing an HBCU had far exceeded my expectations. I honestly would not even be here at theGrio if it wasn’t for going to an HBCU because I thought I was going to college to study psychology and to be a therapist or possibly go to law school. But it never really occurred to me to choose journalism as a path. And I remember I had English 101 course. My mentor, Dr. Allison Ligon, she was her first year teaching at Morehouse, and I remember we had a writing exercise. And the next day, when we submitted our essays, she was like, I want to read this exemplary writing to the class. And she’s reading it. I’m like, Oh my God, she’s reading my paper. And so that’s when, like, I was like, Oh, am I really that gifted as a writer? And so long story short, she became my mentor. I started going to her office after class and she was like, I think you are. You said you would be a really great English major, and I think you should change your major just to really think about it. And this was a second time someone had told me I should be an English major because someone in one of the my English professors in high school said the same thing. And so I felt like the universe was like really talking to me. And I did end up changing my major to English style writing for the school newspaper and hence ended up going on the path of journalism. And I just I think about that all the time. And what if I had decided to go to my backup, which was St. John, the Baptist Central University University in Queens, New York, and I only applied there because it was home based and I was like, If I decide not to go to Atlanta, I want to stay home in New York. So my life will be very different had I not. I also think about this the amazing brotherhood that I’ve been able to perform. Now, the majority of my friends, like I mentioned, I was looking for that Black, gay like brotherhood. I had that times. Times three has been it’s just like relationships and you know, you will. Still, your very last breath on this Earth and to have that kind of love and support and friendship is like, you can’t even describe it. And I just found also a deep pride in being Black. It reminded me go into Morehouse and having history courses in African-American studies, courses, African-American literature. I learned how much my high school and and all of my schooling really in New York really failed me as the Black person. I did not really know my history until I went to college. I think about that. I didn’t really know just how gruesome, you know, white people were toward Black people. Like I had a professor who showed us like hangings, like really terrible images. And yes, they kind of stirred up a lot of emotions, and it’s important to see and know the truth for yourself and which really shows you that how important books are even today, because now we’re having this pushback in schools about teaching about slavery and race and racism. And so I really encourage HBCU people go into HBCUs and supporting HBCUs because our the PWI institutions sometimes can be a hindrance to knowing your own history if you if it’s not around you, like in my family, they weren’t talking about that. My parents weren’t weren’t teaching me Black history. And so it’s also it’s exposed me to Black excellence. And you mentioned this a little bit earlier, Shana, about just being around Black people from different socioeconomic backgrounds all across the country is just as diverse as any other institution that is not an HBCU. But what about you know what to do in choosing Spelman? What is it what you thought it would be like? [00:18:01][260.3]
Shana Pinnock: [00:18:01] Well, you about you over here shaking the CRT table? All right. Well, for me, I think Spelman, I think, was a lot of things that I thought it was going to be. It kind of aligned with a lot of my expectations. I was expecting a little bit more free. Big listen, sister sister had me anticipated free thinking it was gone by the time I started college. But I’ll say this like to be on a daily basis, surrounded by an incredible amount of driven, talented, brilliant women on a daily basis like seeing them thrive, you know, being pushed outside of your comfort zone. I think y’all know me. I am a fierce LGBT advocate and I that probably wouldn’t have happened. Had it not been for Spelman College, I wouldn’t have been able to find breath and find the words to describe the sexual assault that I endured when I was 17. Have I not gone to Spelman College and speaking to women and gaining those type of deeper understandings? I mean, quite frankly, I thought it would be super Black like blankety blank. And I got my super Black like blankety blank. So I again, I’m forever indebted to Spelman on that end. One thing I can’t say, though, what I didn’t expect it to be. Well, there’s two things one dam is hard. Financial aid Jesus. I had a full scholarship at that full scholarship I come to like the second week. The second week I was like, Oh yeah, listen, thank you, United Negro College Fund. But you know what it is right now, and I feel so terrible for current Spelman College students is and really current HBCU students. I don’t think any of us were expecting bomb threats. You know what I’m saying? Like So. Audience, if you don’t know, you know, going to an HBCU, you’re more than acutely aware of racism, right? So at Spelman, we have African diaspora in the world. As Darren was saying, you know, you’re you’re learning all of these different things. But you know, you you also what’s so funny is there’s so many myths about HBCU and Black people just in general. Like, I’ve gone to a PWI and I’ve had white people think like, seriously, that Black folks go to school for free. Like, we ain’t got no school loans. I was like, Do you want to talk to Navient? Would you like to talk to mammy or Hartland or whoever the hell it is? You know, it’s it’s so crazy. But you know, when you’re thinking about it right now, there is this huge influx of bomb threats being made to HBCU is across the country, and it’s so sad to see that, you know, classes have to be shut down. Students are scared to be in school because we don’t know what these white people are capable of. You saw January six, 2021 what is going on. And the fact is, is that we all know that this is day not new to this. Right? They showed it is right. They they were out here blowing up what the the the youngest, the house of the young. This member of the Little Rock, nine, Miss Carlotta Walls, like we know how envious that they can be simply because we are out here being Black and being excellent and being amazing. You know, but it it’s there’s there are a lot of challenges and Trump didn’t help me. Trump didn’t help at all. [00:21:28][206.9]
Gerren Keith Gaynor: [00:21:30] Yeah, it has this challenges for sure. And there’s also the issue of funding, which continues to be a consistent challenge at HBCU. Historically, Black colleges and universities are facing inequities and funding from federal, state and local resources. According to the American Council on Education Public, ABC News will rely on federal, state and local funding more than their non HBCU counterparts about fifty 54 percent of overall revenue, compared to 38 percent. This makes HBCU use more at risk to economic downturn, state divestments from higher education and policy changes, to name a few. In this post, there’s also the issue of HBCU alumni. They’re known for being fiercely loyal to their alma maters, but their rates of giving do not reflect that. The average rate of alumni giving at the nation’s 107 historically Black colleges universities has hovered around 10 percent for the past few decades. But we also graduate with all this debt, and Lord knows I have weights. I might say how much is a lot, but also, but I don’t say a Robert Smith, who a couple of years ago forgave a paid for or rather paid off the debt of Morehouse graduates of that graduating class. And we’ve been seeing a lot of these philanthropists giving millions of dollars to ABC used after the murder of George Floyd, Breonna Taylor and Ahmaud Arbery. And while that has been helpful, I’m really happy to see it. We know that that might not be consistent, and it’s not. It’s not a long term solution. We need to find other ways to help support ABC News. The Biden administration has been trying to help. President Biden had initially proposed spending five hundred million dollars in federal money to support schools, and this is in the Build Back Better Act, which has yet to be passed in Congress. But it would provide significant investments in research and infrastructure development, tuition assistance, scholarship vouchers, cybersecurity workforce development and increased funding through titles three and five. But build back better will likely not be passed. Senator Joe Manchin, who was a Democrat, he’s a moderate, refused to support a bill back better because of inflation. He is a fear that all this federal spending will create inflation and will upset the markets and the economy. Black graduates of HBCU, then Black people who have debt in particular like cancer, are still loans and provide money to schools that are chronically underfunded. And so it really puts the onus on us as citizens to make sure that we are contacting our senators and letting letting them know our representatives in Congress that we want to see build back better pass. We want to see more investment in HBCUs because until we see an equilibrium, if you will, in the amount of support that you see from with PWIs as you see that with HBCUs. Until we see that happen, we will always see these struggles. And I think it’s critically as such sad to see because HBCUs have so much to offer. And I want to see future generations have the experience that I had at Morehouse, but with less debt and more resources. [00:25:01][211.6]
Shana Pinnock: [00:25:02] Yeah, definitely. And you know, we we definitely need to see this funding investment in HBCUs. I know you mentioned Robert Smith. I’m going to on the record. Y’all know I don’t go up for white women much. But Mackenzie Scott and Jeff Bezos, his ex-wife that held it down. I can see when you see me giving them money. So you know, and clearly, I am biased ultimately, because I think that these folks are pretty much they’re the best that a best thing since sliced bread. Now let me also preface this by saying Peter was especially Black folks at PWI. I’m not saying that’s your experience or your your school or your pride or anything like that is any less than that of mine and Gerrans. That’s not what we’re saying, but what we are saying is, listen, we love our HBCU. I don’t know if you if you go up for your PWI as much as we do, I don’t know. But, you know, with me saying. That I’m biased. You know, I know that you are also biased. [00:26:10][67.4]
Gerren Keith Gaynor: [00:26:11] So, very much so. [00:26:12][1.0]
Shana Pinnock: [00:26:14] But I actually brought some stats. OK, we don’t. We don’t, we don’t get into it. Historically, Black colleges and universities consistently outperform non-native schools in student experience, affordability and after college preparedness for Black students, according to Gallup. Black HBCU graduates are generally better prepared for life beyond college and more engaged at work than not HBCU graduates, probably because we’re not exhausted by white people. Black VCU grads are more likely to be thriving in purpose and financial well-being than non HBCU students. And additionally, Black colleges continue to outperform non HBCU and graduating successful Black professionals in a number of fields, including science, technology, engineering and mathematics. And that’s outside of the fact that the network is amazing and the experience is invaluable. I mean, I’m a keeper, but I kind of move back to when I moved a little bit to love a little bit, a little bit from my own personal happiness. But my lying sister is my Spelman sisters. They’re here in Atlanta, like my core is here. I was going to go back where I felt at home. So my HBCU, Spelman College, I love you so much. [00:27:29][75.8]
Gerren Keith Gaynor: [00:27:31] Oh yes, HBCU use are near and dear to my heart and not just bell house. There is such an amazing connection and sense of pride across the entire community of HBCU graduates. It is indeed a beautiful thing to all my graduates. Make sure you’re giving to your alma mater if you’re able, whether it’s given in time or and funds. And if you want to learn more about HBCU, you can visit W W W Dot the hundred-seven dot org for a full list of HBCU use and their whole pages, or visit a local, historically Black college or university campus near you. And of course, for more news and commentary on the culture, visit the Grio’s website at www.thegrio.com And be sure to follow the Deer Culture podcast on Instagram at Dear Culture Pod. [00:28:20][49.5]
Shana Pinnock: [00:28:29] We want to remind our listeners to support your local Black businesses and donate to local organizations and religious institutions. The business that we will highlight this week is three points of view consulting. Three Points of View Consulting is a Black owned, family owned consulting firm that focuses on education policy, business development and cultural ambassadorship. Born and raised in Washington, D.C., with experience and connections spanning the globe, the women of three P V have developed an expansive domestic and international reach. Sisters Ava and Leah Danville and their mother, Denise View, serve as principal consultants and bring three unique points of view to diversity, equity and inclusion work to promote long lasting organizational systems change. To learn more about three points of view consulting, visit WWW that three p v consulting dot com. That’s the number three. The letter P as in Papa the letter V as in Victor Consulting dot com. [00:29:24][54.7]
Gerren Keith Gaynor: [00:29:25] Thank you for listening to Dear Culture if you like what you heard. Please give us a five star review. Subscribe to the show wherever you listen to your podcast and share it with everyone you [00:29:32][8.0]
Shana Pinnock: [00:29:33] know, and please email our questions, suggestions and compliments. We love those two podcasts at theGrio dot com. The Dear Culture podcast is brought to you by The Grio and co-produced by Taji Senior, Sydney Henriques-Payne and Abdul-Quddas. [00:29:33][0.0]
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