Was September 29, 1998, the most significant album release date in hip-hop history? Cultural writer and critic Jacinta Howard joins Panama Jackson to answer that question. Jay-Z, A Tribe Called Quest, Outkast, Brand Nubian, and Black Star all released albums that day that shaped their careers in significant ways, and it may have been the last time that a Tuesday drop had that kind of star power.
Full transcript below.
Panama Jackson [00:00:00] You are now listening to theGrio’s Black Podcast Network. Black Culture Amplified.
Panama Jackson [00:00:08] What’s going on, everybody? Welcome to Dear Culture, the podcast for, by and about the culture. I’m your host, Panama Jackson. And welcome to theGrio Black Podcast Network. We’re celebrating 50 years of hip hop. It’s 2023. The the official founding day was, what, August 11th, 1973. So we’ve been doing all these hip hop shows. And today we’re going to talk about a very special day in hip hop, which is September 29th, 1998, which was the last great release date in hip hop history. On this date, Outkast’s Aquemini was released, A Tribe Called Quest The Love Movement is released. Brand Nubians Foundation is released. Mos Def and Talib Kweli released Mos Def and Talib Kweli are Black Star and Jay-Z releases Volume Two: Hard Knock Life. This was the day that ran your pockets because back then CDs were like still 1999 and they had this big– it was a whole thing. It was a day. And to join me in discussing this date is the news editor at Rock the Bells, Jacinta Howard. She’s an Atlanta based writer. She’s been– she was an arts and music writer for Creative Loafing. She got bylines everywhere from BET, Shondaland, The Source, Hip Hop DX. She’s also a romance novelist. Who is an award winning romance novel. Let me go ahead and put that out there. Who has ten different books that you should go pick up, absolutely. She’s been considered a must read author by authoritative outlets on this. We’re talking hip hop and we’re talking about our personal connections with these albums that drop 25 years ago. So, you know, this is an amazing conversation I’m excited to have because, I mean, it’s a date that matters in my life. And Jacinta wrote an article about the last great release date in hip hop history, so there was nobody better to have this conversation with. So let’s jump into it. Do you remember this day? Like, do you were you were you, like, invested in your hip hop, like life at this point? When is out– when this day comes out?
Jacinta Howard [00:02:05] I was in I was working at the record store, actually a music store called Peppermint Music in West End, which was like a few blocks from the Atlanta University Center. And so I remember like that being like a big release date. I mean, because honestly, 1998 was just like a big release year period. I mean, that was like at the height of like No Limit was dropping all the time. You had like DMX that was dropped. And I think he dropped like two albums that year. Like it was a big year period. But I do remember this day being like a big deal, especially like in Atlanta, because you had the new Outkast album coming out and then Jay-Z was like really big here too. So yeah, I mean, I do remember that being like a big deal.
Panama Jackson [00:02:45] It’s funny. Well, two things I have to point out. When she said West End, like that was the hood mall. It was one of our hood malls. So the fact that you were working at the Peppermint, which I remember, I remember skipping out– so we were both in the Atlanta University Center, which for those that don’t know, is a consortium of schools, Morehouse College, which is where I was Spelman College, Clark Atlanta University, the Interdenominational Theological Center and at the time, Morris Brown, which I guess is back in the AU scene, I don’t actually know.
Jacinta Howard [00:03:13] Is back. It got its accreditation. Yep.
Panama Jackson [00:03:15] Boom. All right. So Morris Brown back like cooked crack. But we all went to Peppermint back then for album releases. They were all like– Peppermint was expensive, by the way. It was all like $19.99 albums with the plastic thing on it that you couldn’t even really steal because it was hard to break the things out of.
Jacinta Howard [00:03:32] And they had like big cases and the yeah. It was a thing. I put many CDs in those big hefty cases.
Panama Jackson [00:03:40] The fact that where we were at that time was also important because on Clark’s campus across from Club Woody which was what we called the Robert C Woodruff? Robert A. Woodruff. Woodruff Library, was a store called Audrey’s, which used to have all the albums in advance. So I used to go to Audrey’s so I could listen to hours before I buy them, because I was a student who didn’t have a lot of money. So I wanted to hear if I was going to buy these albums. And I vividly remember listening to Aquemini in there and I remember getting all the way to SpottieOttieDopaliscious in literally sitting in there for an hour on repeat, listening to that and going to tell the homies like, “Yo, this is the greatest song ever heard in my entire life, y’all.” “I’ve never heard anything better than this, y’all.” “We all got to go to Audrey’s right now and buy this album.” I also have a crack head story involving this, but we’re going to get to that in a second. What do you remember about that day? Like, did you buy the albums or did you just borrow them from peppermint? Did you get them all?
Jacinta Howard [00:04:36] I mean, I know I, I had for sure I had Aquemini and I had a track list. And I don’t remember if I bought Jay-Z’s album. But I do know– like I worked in a music store, so we had complete access and I didn’t get all the albums all the time. But, you.
Panama Jackson [00:04:54] Did you get discounts?
Jacinta Howard [00:04:56] Yeah, we did get a discount. I did get a discount. And I do remember, like. I got the– my priority was OutKast Aquemini because like you said, like. You know, I mean, for me, Aquemini is not just one of the greatest hip hop albums of all time. It’s just one of the greatest records ever of all time. I mean, so yeah, like I do remember having the Outkast album in particular in the Tribe album because I loved J Dilla. Find a Way.
Panama Jackson [00:05:23] Yeah, that was a record. Absolutely. Yes, still is.
Tribe Called Quest Find A Way [00:05:26] Now you’ve caught my heart for the evening, Kissed my cheek, moved in, you confused things. Should I just sit out or come harder? Help me find my way.
Panama Jackson [00:05:37] Arguably their best song. That was the argument I have with my friends all the time about what Tribe’s best song is. But anyway, keep going.
Jacinta Howard [00:05:43] That’s funny that you said that. I mean, I wouldn’t say it’s their best song, but I definitely think it’s like top five. I think it’s like an underappreciated song. It’s never come out of rotation for me. Like that’s one of those songs that like I just never stop playing it, really.
Panama Jackson [00:05:57] So I definitely bought it and I think I might have got these from Audrey’s. I bought Jay-Z’s Hard Knock Life. I bought Tribe’s Love Movement, Hard knock Life and Aquemini. I bought all three of them. And I vividly remember this because I went home. So I lived on MLK like right by the the 80 homes Marta station. Like I lived over there. And I live next door to a crack house slash trap house.
Jacinta Howard [00:06:24] I bet you did.
Panama Jackson [00:06:25] One of my neighbors. So this was my fault. This is back when you had to put like the tape in the tape deck and like, run that to your CD disc man kind of thing. And I always knew in my house because I lived next door to a crack house. And I knew that and I knew them all very well that I had to put my stuff under the seat as a respect thing. If they can’t see the wires, they won’t break into my car. But if they can see the wires, they’re going to break into my car because they are required to commit the crimes that they are known for in my neighborhood. And what happened was my CD, my little– the little string was visible. I go in the house, I’m sitting on a couch, chilling. Like 10 minutes later, I get a knock on my front door. I answer the door and one of the crackheads live next door to me says, “Say, what’s going on, bro? I got these albums I know you want.” I was like, “What?” And he shows me, and it’s the three CDs I had just bought that were sitting there in his hand. It was Jay-Z, Outkast and A Tribe Called Quest. And I was like, “Bro, hold on.” I walked to the back. I looked out my window and I saw my window was busted out and there was glass all over the thing. And I walked back to the front was like,” Dog, are you trying to sell me the albums I just bought?” He was like, “I don’t know what you’re talking about. All I know is I got these three CDs that I know you want,” and I was like, “Get out of here. Like, go away. Like, I’m not buying my albums back from you.” So he left. I did not buy those albums back, but I did have to go spend $300 to get a new window because I left the wires out. It’s my fault. That’s my memory from that day.
Jacinta Howard [00:07:58] You might have should’ve bought it back. You might have should’ve just bought.
Panama Jackson [00:08:01] I couldn’t do it on principle. On principle, I could not double spend money that I didn’t have in the first place. And then I ended up having to spend more because I had to buy a new window, like I had to get my window replaced because he– and I told him I was like, “Dog, you could have just knocked on the door, said, ‘I’m about to get you.'” So either give me some money or.
Jacinta Howard [00:08:19] And you could’ve rolled down the window.
Panama Jackson [00:08:21] You didn’t have to break the window, bro. Like, I respect your hustle. I get it. Like, you could have just knocked on the door. It’s a dog I’m about to rob, so break me off something because– and go fix your stuff. Put it under there. He knew me. This is my enduring memory from September 29th, 1998. This is the memory that I have forever about that day, which is ridiculous, but also awesome at the same time because.
Jacinta Howard [00:08:48] But you went back to buy all three of the same albums, though.
Panama Jackson [00:08:52] Because my friends are really good people. One of my boys bought me the Aquemini and Jay-Z album because I told him I love them most. So he got those for me because he felt bad for me. I did eventually go back and get the rest of them. I don’t think on that day, though, that I bought the Black Star album or Foundation, I definitely have them, but I did not buy them that day and I don’t know exactly why. Maybe it was just the money thing, you know, I only have a hundred bones to spend.
Jacinta Howard [00:09:18] Right. I mean, I think that was the case with everybody. I mean, and I think, you know, Black Star are and then like Brand Nubian, those were ones that I think people came back and got. I think that was pretty common thing.
Panama Jackson [00:09:30] Yeah. The Black Star especially had a slow burn like it’s, I think, much more important now, like historically than it was at the time though I remember when like Definition when that song dropped like that beat that video and everything, I was like, whoever these people are, I need to be on. We’re going to talk about Mos and Talib, though. Woof.
Black Star Definition [00:09:51] Loooord, Lord have mercy. All nice and peace and true. Follow me now. We say. Say Hi-Tek yes you’re ruling hip hop.
Panama Jackson [00:10:00] So you said like OutKast Aquemini was the one you had to have. Like what was– was there one that you just weren’t checking for at all?
Jacinta Howard [00:10:10] Not really. I mean, the one that was probably the least on my radar, honestly, at that time was probably Brand Nubian. But it wasn’t like I was just like. You know, I’m not you know, it was just that was probably the least on my radar. But yeah, Aquemini was definitely the one that I had to have. Yeah.
Panama Jackson [00:10:30] Yeah, I think that’s the same for me. I think Aquemini was the one I had– and obviously Jay-Z, because like you said, like it’s hard to remember these kind of days. Back then I remember they used to play like DJ Premier produced songs on a radio. Like back then in Atlanta, like radio would be– you could hear songs like Nas is Like or Gang Starr songs on the radio, and Jay-Z’s Hard Knock Life was all over the place. Like this was a song you could not escape.
Jay -Z Hard Knock Life [00:10:55] Ya’ll don’t know me. I’m tight grill when my situation ain’t improving, I’m trying to murder everything moving. Feel me.
Panama Jackson [00:11:05] And I knew I had to have that album because, number one, I wanted that song. But two is Jay-Z, who I’m a big fan of, who, you know, is like one and one A for like my favorite rappers between him, like Biggie is my– probably who I think is like the greatest rapper of all time. Just like, skill wise, whatever. But, you know, Jay-Z’s my dude. But you got to have the Outkast, right? We’re in Atlanta. I wonder what it’s like in other places. But I know in Atlanta like that Outkast was a must cop. Everything else was negotiable.
Jacinta Howard [00:11:32] Right. Right.
Panama Jackson [00:11:34] And I didn’t love Brand Nubian. I was going to get the album because it felt like this day was important. Like all these albums came out. I knew I was going to get it, but I don’t remember it. Like, I wasn’t a huge brand Nubian fan, like just as a group, even though there were songs that I liked. They were definitely my least anticipated album purchase out of all of them.
Jacinta Howard [00:11:56] Yeah, same for me. And then also, I mean, it’s funny you say that because even I mean, not to nerd out, but even like the cover for Brand Nubian was much more like muted. It was like the brown cover. Like, you know, Jay-Z was like you posed in front of that– I think he was in front of a car or something on that one.
Panama Jackson [00:12:12] Yeah. Yeah, he was.
Jacinta Howard [00:12:12] Of course, Outkast had like the the the comic book graphic. You know, it was just the other albums pop more visually as well. I mean, that’s no disagree Anything like that felt like that. I mean, you could probably come back to.
Panama Jackson [00:12:26] Tribes album just had that white cover with some symbols and stuff like that on it. But it was a white cover and it’s Tribe. It was Tribe.
Jacinta Howard [00:12:36] So still bright, you know, stark white. But yeah.
Panama Jackson [00:12:41] And I think this was when we were all like, are they even still together? It had been five years since Midnight Marauders. No, no, that’s not true. Beats, Rhymes and Life came out in 96. It’s been two years since Beats, Rhymes and life. But Beats, Rhymes and Life was not a very well-received album, like all of us. Like, what’s going on here? So it felt like the end was coming with The Love Movement. And it turns out it was.
Jacinta Howard [00:13:06] Right.
Panama Jackson [00:13:07] And I think like right after that album drop Tip tells everybody the group is done and there’s much debate about that. Phife was like, I didn’t even know he was over either. Like, apparently Tip sent a letter to the label, like, I’m out, and Jarobi and Shaheed and Phife found out like everybody else did.
Jacinta Howard [00:13:23] Yeah.
Panama Jackson [00:13:24] Q-Tip.
Panama Jackson [00:13:25] So do you still listen? Do you still like listen– obviously you still listen to Aquemini because it’s Aquemini, but like, are there other albums? Do you still listen to any of them?
Jacinta Howard [00:13:39] Honestly, probably. Well, I still listen to like the Black Star album. That’s probably the one. Like I say, Aquemini and the Black Star album are the ones that I listen to in totality the most. I don’t really listen to the Tribe album in totality. I listened to Find A Way. And then jay-Z. I never– I dig Jay-Z, but I never really was super into that album, even when it dropped. Like I thought it was a good album. And obviously it was like super important for like the trajectory of his career. But I mean, it’s not even in my top five Jay-Z albums, you know. It’s an important album for his career, but it is not like top five Jay-Z for me, you know.
Panama Jackson [00:14:27] It’s funny you say that, because I actually agree. I think the more albums he released, the less important that album became. Like at the time it drops and it’s like his most commercially successful. It’s like, this is Jay-Z at the peak of his powers Like, this is when Jay-Z is like Jay. He’s that guy. But as he contin– you know, and he was always threatening to retire and all this other stuff. As he released more albums, it was like, you know, we got like 15, 16 albums that we can rate. And I’m which you like. I don’t think that– aside from Hard Knock Life as a song, I don’t know that this album like, sits in my– it’s definitely not my top five Jay-Z records at all.
Jacinta Howard [00:15:05] Right.
Panama Jackson [00:15:05] And I don’t even remember liking it as much when it dropped either. I remember everybody liking it way more than I did, and I thought that I was missing something.
Jacinta Howard [00:15:12] Yeah. And I mean, I think it’s because, like, like you just said, I mean, this is like the commercial album for him. And so, like, that was an album. Like they were playing Hard Knock Life like 24 seven on the radio. And then like– it just had like a lot of radio hits. And to me it felt like Jay was like. It felt like his crossover album.
Panama Jackson [00:15:30] Yeah, I’m with you 100% There are songs in there that I love. Songs that took me like Money, Cash. It was like I did not like this song at first. I love it now. I love that joint now. Like when I hear now, the nostalgia of it, like punches me in the face and I’m excited just for like, how bizarre it was. Like how bizarre it is now. But back then I remember being like, What is this? Like, what is happening?
Jay-Z – Money, Cash, H*es [00:15:54] More money, more cash, more (c’mon). More money, more cash.
Panama Jackson [00:15:59] Why is this a record that everybody’s telling me is amazing? But I was wrong, clearly.
Jacinta Howard [00:16:04] Yeah, that felt like intentional. It felt like Jay-Z saying, okay, I’m going to make this kind of album to have this kind of result. That’s what that album felt like to me. So, I mean, and that’s, I think, why you get songs like what you were talking about and like is not super cohesive in terms of it sounds to me, you know what I mean? Like Hard Knock Life is significantly a different vibe. So, I don’t know
Panama Jackson [00:16:31] Yeah. No, you’re right. I agree with that. And, you know, again, at the time I remember arguing when people were like, Yo, Jay’s the greatest. Okay, that’s fine. But I was like, This ain’t this ain’t the album that defines that for me. This is not the album that proves that point.
Jacinta Howard [00:16:46] It just proved commercial viability, though. I think that’s what it did. Like it, it took him from being like a hip hop star to like a music star.
Panama Jackson [00:16:56] Fair enough. And I do remember. Being significantly disappointed in Tribes album. Like I. My feelings were hurt because I didn’t love these rhymes in life. So when they get a second album in a row that I thought wasn’t any good and I actually thought it was no good. That’s why when when my homeboy asked me what albums that I wanted, again, it was like, If you’re going to get me, I appreciate the Outkast and the Jay-Z album. I didn’t need the Tribe album again. I bought it for from nostalgia sake, you know, eventually. But I was like in aside from Find a Way which they were selling, I’m selling singles back then so you could actually just get the single. You didn’t need to get the whole album. Like, I remember not loving album and being hurt by that. Actually, I was very disappointed in that album. Like I wanted to like and I just did not at all, which is hard for me. Time for a quick break. Stay with us. All right. We’re back here on Dear Culture with Jacinta Howard talking about the last great release date in hip hop history, largely talking about the albums, which is September 29th, 1998, which is an album– which is a date where we saw music releases, by the way, which was a Tuesday. It’s important to point this out. It was actually a Tuesday when all the albums used to come out on Tuesdays. Now we always for Friday were Tuesdays was the release date. I don’t even know when that changed. I’m assuming streaming changed all of that, but.
[00:18:14] Yea, I think it’s streaming.
Panama Jackson [00:18:14] A significant portion. Tuesdays was the days when you who worked at Peppermint Music were probably the most busy. Right. We used to stand outside of Tower Records at midnight on Monday nights to go get albums. They would do album signings at midnight and places at Tower and stuff like that. Rank the albums in terms of their importance to hip hop, if you can. I know you can, but give me give me your ranking of importance of these albums with 25 years of history at our backs now.
Jacinta Howard [00:18:44] I would say Aquemini, Black Star, Jay-Z, Brand Nubian. Well, no Tribe and then Brand Nubian.
Panama Jackson [00:18:56] All right. That’s the same order that I have. So we’re on the same page there. So I’m curious where you rank a Aquemini in Outkast catalog.
Jacinta Howard [00:19:04] Number one. Like hands down. I’ll tell you why. Because I know it’s like the debate between Aquemini and ATLiens. Usually.
Panama Jackson [00:19:14] I’m an ATLiens guy, by the way. So. Okay.
Jacinta Howard [00:19:16] So the reason why I go with Aquemini is– well I mean, honestly, I just think it’s a better album, just hands down. I just think sonically, cohesively where they were in terms of like their growth individually and then their growth as a group. I just think that is like the quintessential Outkast album. Like it no one had– if a person was introduced to me and they’d never heard of Outkast, that’s the album I would get them to listen to. To let them know like what they’re capable of and what their style and vibe and what they bring to the table is. And I mean, I think, you know, because I mean, for me personally, like I like so I think SouthernPlayerlistic, ATLiens and Aquemini are all classic albums. Fantastic classic albums. But I think for me, I feel like ATLiens plays to me more like a debut because SouthernPlayerlistic, it was so it was it was an album that was like the Dungeon family and it was like a collaborative effort. That’s to me, like a Dungeon Family project starring Big and Dre. Right. But ATLiens was like them really coming into their own. You know, they’ve both been through some things they were getting like on the path that you would see them go in. But Aquemini is them like at that place. I mean– yeah and I mean, like I said, I think Aquemini is one of the greatest albums ever recorded. I mean, equipment is like their Innervisions. You know what I mean? Like, that’s. That’s it.
Panama Jackson [00:20:49] So I do not disagree with the single thing you said. I do think Aquemini is a better album than ATLiens. I do think it’s there most– it’s not the most ambitious, I think. Obviously, you can argue about The Love Below and all that. It really is just The Love Below in terms of ambition. But Stankonia as them putting an album together I think is more ambitious than Aquemini. But in terms of like the the complete products and in terms of history, like equipment is hands down. Of all these albums that were released this day, the most important one. People that say Aquemini is better than ATLiens. I don’t even argue. I understand. I just like ATLiens more largely because– like Elevators meant so much to me as just like– like I remember physically where I was, where I was the first time I heard Elevators. Like, I remember exactly the parking space I was in at a Kmart parking lot in Madison, Alabama, when this song came on the radio and how I literally was frozen by by this song. I was like, What is this? And I was so mad that, you know, this is radio. Like, I couldn’t rewind it. I like I held on to those minutes with my dear life. And then I got home and I was just like, I don’t even know what to do with my life anymore. Like, this is this is a life changing song for me.
Outkast – Elevators [00:22:05] Me and you, yo mama and yo cousin, too. Rolling down the strip on Vogues. Coming up slamming Cadillac doors.
Panama Jackson [00:22:16] And that album felt like that for me. When ATLiens comes out, like that’s 100% how I felt about that album. So it’s just personal. I agree that Aquemini, as a kind of the culmination of all of their skill sets and their sound and everything is when it all 100% came together and created like one of the greatest albums ever. So you never get any argument from me on that. I agree with you completely. You ain’t wrong. I just enjoy ATLiens more because of, I think what it is for me personally. Yeah. Like it literally changed the way that I listen to music. And there’s a couple of albums like that that I hold in such high regard that, like, there’s nothing you can say that will like. Dilla’s Donuts is one of those albums for me, or, you know, like DJ Shadow’s Introducing like there’s these albums that just genuinely changed me as a music person. But so yeah. So ATLiens is it for me. So where do you put The Love Movement in the Tribe catalog?
Jacinta Howard [00:23:17] I put it quite low, I think so.
Panama Jackson [00:23:23] There’s only five albums to talk of, right? Think the rhythms and or travels in the past, I don’t even know the first.
Panama Jackson [00:23:30] Peoples people.
Panama Jackson [00:23:32] Peoples people. Low End Theory, Midnight Marauders, Beats, Rhymes and Life and Thank You For Your Service. We Got It From Here.
Jacinta Howard [00:23:40] Yeah. So I think Love Movement probably for me falls last. Well, I mean, I think– you know, I go back and forth. I probably do Midnight Marauders, Low End Theory. I actually like Thank You For Your Service. I might do that. And then Peoples and then Beats, Rhymes and Life, and then Love Movement.
Panama Jackson [00:24:08] Interesting. I’m with you. Midnight Marauders is probably at this point surpassed De La Soul Is Dead is my favorite album of all time.
Panama Jackson [00:24:15] Really?
Panama Jackson [00:24:17] I have a Tribe Called Quest decal on my car. Like on my car, I actually have a Tribe Called Quest decal. Right. Like, that’s. That’s. That’s. I’m that person. Yeah. Midnight Marauders. The album I listen to more than any other album at this point. Like, I love it. If I was stuck on an island and I could only bring one album, that’s the one I’m bringing. So but so for me, it’s that Low End Theory. I guess, people’s People’s Instinctive Travels, the love– maybe the– The Love Movement would be next. And then the last one is Thank you For Your Service. I can’t stand that album. I have– I don’t enjoy it even a little. And there’s no single like Find a Way that genuinely makes me go back to it. Like, I don’t need to ever hear that album again. And I know that’s controversial and it sucks. I do want to I want to mention everybody listening, and we’re going to do a poll, like a Spotify poll on social media for people to rank these albums, these albums that came out.
Jacinta Howard [00:25:10] Please don’t say nothing goofy.
Panama Jackson [00:25:11] We’re going to put a poll up there for people to rank the album. So I do want to you brought up something earlier, and I think we alluded to this, too, about Jay-Z’s album and where that fits in his catalog. For one, it’s too many album to go through. At this point, he has enough albums where you could do the bottom tier, the middle tier or the top tier, right, which I think includes Reasonable Doubts and Blueprints and Black Album and 4:44 and stuff like that. And then there’s the rest of his album. Some of them are entirely forgettable, and I don’t– I think this is probably like a mid-tier album for Jay-Z. At the time, it seemed like this was going to be like his crowning achievement, but as he keeps releasing albums, I think becomes less and less important. Just because he has albums that matter way more to the culture and to hip hop in general than this album. Is that a fair statement?
Jacinta Howard [00:25:54] Well, absolutely. And I mean, it’s– that’s a good point that you make, because at the time you did think this was like pinnacle Jay-Z. But I’m the honestly, he could do a show and not perform, in my opinion, anything from the album and be just fine. You know what I mean?
Panama Jackson [00:26:08] That is true. That is definitely true. I think Money, Cash, Hoes is a song as you got to put on just for the hype factor. The entertainment factor.
Jacinta Howard [00:26:18] Yeah, it’s a hype song. But I mean, if he did a show and he didn’t perform that, I wouldn’t like shed a tear.
Panama Jackson [00:26:24] Yeah. Fair enough. Fair enough. Time for a quick break. Stay with us.
Touré [00:26:30] Thank you so much to the Signal Awards for nominating Being Black: The ’80s for an award. Such an honor. We worked so hard on this docu series because the music of the eighties means so much to us. Please help me out and vote for Being Black: The ’80s and maybe we could win a Signal Award.
Panama Jackson [00:26:54] And we’re back. So I want to talk about Mos Def and Talib Kweli are Black Star, because I have like one of the hottest hip hop takes of all time about this album.
Jacinta Howard [00:27:05] Which is?.
Panama Jackson [00:27:06] To be fair, is an album that I think is more important now than it was even then. Like I think as a– it’s definitely of these five albums, the second most important because Aquemini, as you said, you’re comparing that to Innervisions. So we’re– it’s on this high plateau. It’s on.
Jacinta Howard [00:27:22] Yeah.
Panama Jackson [00:27:23] It’s on Rolling Stone lists of like greatest albums of all time and it belongs there and you know, for hip hop is definitely belongs at the front of the line for those kind of albums. You could argue about what the greatest hip hop albums of all time are, but this belongs in the conversation, Right? I’m with you there. But here’s my hot take about Black Star. I think this album is more important than it is good. Like I think this album is more– I don’t think this album is as good as we remember it. Because I think it’s– like the songs that are really good, like Definition and Respiration. Like, you know, there’s there’s some amazing records on this album. Like, don’t don’t get me wrong, I’m not saying that’s not the case.
Black Star – Respiration [00:28:10] The shinny apple is bruised but sweet and if you choose to eat. You could lose your teeth. Many crews retreat. Nightly news repeat who got shut down the lockdown.
Panama Jackson [00:28:19] There are amazing records on this album. And, you know, I remember even at the time when Definition drops like that video and that song, like I said, I loved that. Like I still bump this because that’s like that. You know, they represent, you know, one of my favorite quotes from one of the greatest movies of all time from Brown Sugar. The hip hop Dalmatians represent the real hip hop dog, you know what I’m saying? That’s what it is. But I think that’s really what it represents to the culture. I don’t know if the album by itself is as good at that what it represents? Am I crazy? Am I off base?
Jacinta Howard [00:28:51] No, I think that’s pretty accurate. I think. Yeah, I think that’s accurate. I mean, because like you said, I do think is an album that at the time that it dropped, you didn’t realize how important it was going to be. And you didn’t realize– well, and that’s partly because they didn’t drop anything else except No Fair Time, right? That’s like the only other.
Panama Jackson [00:29:13] Yeah, that’s the other album they droppd, which is a horrible album. Horrendous.
Jacinta Howard [00:29:18] If you went in to what was it? Luminary. Was that where you had.
Panama Jackson [00:29:23] Yes. You had to pay for Luminary to go listen to it.
Jacinta Howard [00:29:26] To get it.
Panama Jackson [00:29:26] And then be mad that she spent the $9.99 for the monthly subscription to Luminary.
Jacinta Howard [00:29:31] Well.
Panama Jackson [00:29:32] We probably have to bleep out that words Luminary.
Panama Jackson [00:29:35] I’m just saying that. But. Anyway.
Jacinta Howard [00:29:41] But yeah, I mean, I think I think in retrospect is important, obviously, because it set both of them up. And then, you know, after that, Mos drops, you know, Black on Both Sides, which is incredible. And then, you know, Talib it set him up for Quality, etc.. So but I mean, yeah.
Panama Jackson [00:29:57] Reflection Eternal. Reflection Eternal.
Jacinta Howard [00:29:58] I’m sorry, not Quality. That’s what I meant, Reflection Eternal. But yeah, I mean, I agree with you.I think it’s a good album, but I think like you said, is more important for what it represents in like the tone that it sent. But it also like, you know, it set– it was like a– it set a tone for like a new subgenre as well, too. Like it was kind of like the leader in like this new, not new, but like another niche of hip hop. And it kind of became like the, you know, representative of that too, in that way. So, yeah, I mean, and that’s the other thing that makes the day so interesting is that you had so many different– you had really high caliber artists all dropping something at the same time. But then they, for the most part, were kind of each in their own little lane. So that also made it really cool too.
Panama Jackson [00:30:54] Yeah, I agree with that. And, you know. I think so, yes. Black Star sets up Mos and Talib. So, Black on Both Sides. One of my favorite albums ever. Like, I think it’s underappreciated even still at this point for how just how good that album is. But the same thing Reflection Eternal’s album, which is Talib and Hi-Tek Train of Thought, like that album is amazing. Like it’s just it’s an amazing album all the way through. No matter how in 2023 you feel about Talib Kweli, That album is an amazing record and it has the blast on it, which is one of the greatest beats in hip hop history.
Reflection Eternal – The Blast [00:31:34] Yeah. You can pronounce the name Kweli. Any questions? I bring many blessings with my man Hi-Tek.
Panama Jackson [00:31:39] Featuring one of the most reclusive yet people that I want to meet most in life, which is Vinia Mojica, who was also on the Black Star album. You know, she’s on Knowledge Itself. And Black Star, also has Brown Skin Lady was a popular song back then, was like one of the few songs that I think people viewed as being uplifting of Black women in a genre that is notoriously and historically been very demeaning towards towards Black women especially. So it was, you know, as opposed to a completely ridiculous song like Dead Prez Mind Sex, which was one of the most ridiculous songs of all time. Despite having amazing beat.
Jacinta Howard [00:32:15] I mean. I still
Panama Jackson [00:32:16] The beat was amazing. The song is ridiculous.
Jacinta Howard [00:32:19] I feel like Mind Sex. It’s like, “Oh, bless ya’lls heart.” It just sounds like a college dorm room song.
Panama Jackson [00:32:28] The song had salads and croutons mentioned in it and like, you sounded like it sounded like a whole song of running game, you know, from.
Jacinta Howard [00:32:36] It’s like the quintessential, “Girl, let me come over here and give you a massage.” When you’re in college. It’s like that.
Panama Jackson [00:32:41] Yes. It is 100% that. And people love that song. And I’m like, yo, this is the opposite, when Dre was like, “I bet you never heard of a player with no game” kind of things. Like no, Mind Sex is 100% game. It’s 100%. This is probably the first and only time croutons have been mentioned in a hip hop song ever. But, you know, but Brown Skin Lady was like the the good version of that. It was like the version, you know, that pays homage kind of thing.
Jacinta Howard [00:33:11] Yeah.
Panama Jackson [00:33:12] But, you know, I do think the other– the things that came from it, at least individually right after, were better than that album. But it was a great sound. Like it was a great setup for that album. So let me ask you this. Do you think we’ll ever have another day like this in the hip hop consciousness? Like, I don’t know that people were appreciated the way that we should. You know, I’m doing like this conversation. I’m going to write about these albums, you know, for my like and the written format, too, just as a 25 year retrospective. But do you think this is something that will ever happen again?
Jacinta Howard [00:33:47] I don’t. No. And the reason why is because I just think, like you said, I just think people are releasing music differently. And I know, like it feels like folks will change release dates if they know other people are coming out with stuff. And also, the release date just doesn’t mean what it meant back then. You know what I mean? Like nobody. Cause you’re getting like, loosey singles here and there, no one’s really buying records. You’re not making– you no longer have to, like, make an intentional effort to, like, go out and, like you said, spend $100 if five album comes out. It’s just a different thing. You’re not ever going to like– no one reads the liner notes. You know what I mean? Like, you just– it’s a different– it’s a different time. I just think that’s gone and, you know, it’s okay. Things change. But no, I don’t think so.
Panama Jackson [00:34:37] You know, I kind of miss that, though. Like, I would love to see a documentary about that day because I think it kind of rises to the occasion, you know, in retrospect, in a way, thinking about it, like you had these artists that were all highly anticipated at the time. Like I said, that, you know, Brand Nubian was my favorite group, but I know people who absolutely love Brand New Year, right? And they were like, Yeah, Foundation is coming out. The single Don’t Let It Go To Your Head was out. And that joint– It was a song. It was a banger, you know what I’m saying? People really like that song, right?
Brand Nubian – Don’t Let It Go To Your Head [00:35:07] Everybody loved star when they on top. Nobody comes around when the stars start to drop.
Panama Jackson [00:35:15] This album, had Premiere on it. Like it had Lord Finesse production, you know, like it was an album that as a hip hop head, we were looking forward to. Like it was like, “Aight, Brand Nubian is back”. Like their cachet was pretty sizable. It might not have been to what, like definitely in Atlanta, like to what we thought of Outkast or whatever. But, Brand Nubian was Brand Nubian. Same with Tribe, right? So.
Jacinta Howard [00:35:36] Right.
Panama Jackson [00:35:37] You know, I remember the anticipation for this. I realized all these albums were coming out and I remember going into Audrey’s and seeing all the albums out. You know, this was on that Monday because she had them all in advance and they were all sitting up there and I was just like, How do you pick which albums to buy? You know, like, how do you decide what you’re getting and where you’re from could dictate that, right? Like, right. It was Outkast for us, but I don’t know if it was Outkast immediately for everybody. Some people were like Brand Nubian or you know, that Mos Def– that Black Star album might have been their album. And, you know, I can appreciate that. Like, I do kind of wish we would have another day where, like you said, where the release dates mattered as much as like, you know, Friday nights at midnight, I go check to see what dropped. And I don’t know if it’s an album or a single, right. Like, I’m just like, you know, people release an album. I don’t even know where to find just album drops and stuff like that, that there specifically album drops anymore.
Jacinta Howard [00:36:29] Right.
Panama Jackson [00:36:30] So I kind of appreciate what that was historically. And it’s sad that it’s been 25 years since we’ve had a day where that high caliber of artists all on the same day felt compelled to in that space drop albums. Because people move release dates now, Right? Like you don’t want to drop when Beyonce’s dropping. You don’t want to drop when Kanye’s drop in or stuff like that. You know, you don’t want to compete with Travis Scott, you know, because you want your numbers, too, right? You want your numbers. So the fact that all of these people could drop albums– I don’t know what the release numbers were. I’m assuming that Jay and Outkast– Jay, because it’s his most commercially successful album, and Outkast probably did really, really well.
Panama Jackson [00:37:08] Yeah. I think that’s what– it thnk it was Jay and then Outkast, because I think Outkast was– I know Jay– Jay hit number one, and that was his first Billboard 200 number one I think. And then Outkast I think was number two. So yeah.
Panama Jackson [00:37:22] Yeah.
Jacinta Howard [00:37:23] But yeah, I mean, yeah you’re right. I mean, I think it does make you like appreciate that time more.I feel sad for like my daughter who doesn’t, you know, she’s really starting to get into like her own music days in her own vibe and it’s cool. But I’m like, you don’t know what it’s like to, like, actively anticipate an album dropping and then having to physically make an intentional drive to the store, intentionally spend your money. You know what I mean? Like that because that puts more it makes it more meaningful, you know what I mean? Like if you actually have to, like, put forth effort to get something, you appreciate it a little bit more. So, yeah, I mean, and like you said, people move release dates. I just don’t see that happening again.
Panama Jackson [00:38:11] And don’t forget in having a ripped that plastic off of that thing, trying to get it without breaking the side of the CD because you’re like trying to get your finger in to rip it open. To get– so you can actually get the CD booklet out. Try not to tear that thing. If it was too thick, try not to tear it when you pull the thing out. Like it was a whole thing about albums back in the day. Like, I still have all those CDs with those liner notes and I go revisit them sometimes, you know, because– you know, so, you know, I wrote about this recently where, you know, Miseducation came out 25 years ago this year, too, and going to Northlake Mall to stand in line to get her autograph. And I took the CD booklet. Right. Like I had it like, now what would you even go get signed? I mean, I guess if you have merch, but you just get a piece of paper signed, like what’s.
Jacinta Howard [00:38:55] Print out the Spotify. I don’t know.
Panama Jackson [00:38:59] All the little stuff you don’t think about when, like when you get to the last one of one of those things, like how everything changed. The industry as a whole has changed in terms of interaction, but you can interact with your art with artists way more now through social media.
Jacinta Howard [00:39:11] Right. Right.
Panama Jackson [00:39:13] Not in person perhaps the same way for some of those things, but. I just I– it’s true, like I have a 14 year old in like the experience of buying a CD and opening it and reading the liner notes while you’re listening to the songs and trying to see who’s involved in it. What the artist had to say. Like, you know, The Roots were notorious for its extensive liner notes and all the, you know, Questlove took a lot of time to write all those liner notes and, you know, just seeing stuff that was in there. And now it’s not really a thing anymore. Not even. Not really. That’s not a thing anymore. I mean, I know they still sell CDs. I’ve seen them at at stores on occasion, but, you know, it just ain’t the same.
Jacinta Howard [00:39:54] It’s not.
Panama Jackson [00:39:55] All right. Well, we’re going to take one more break here and when we come back, we’re going to come back with my favorite segments, which are Blackfession and Blackmendations here on Dear Culture. All right, we’re back on Dear Culture talking the greatest release date in hip hop history or the last great release date in hip hop history with Jacinta Howard, who was the news editor at Rock The Bells. And we just discussed the significance, the historical significance of these albums, like our own personal connections to them, all that good stuff. But now we’re at the final segment of Dear Culture where we talk about– where we do my favorite things, which is a Blackfession and a Blackmendation. A Blackfession being a confession about your Blackness, something people will be surprised to know about you because you’re Black. Do you have a Blackfession for us?
Jacinta Howard [00:40:43] Something that so– Well. Something that someone will be surprised to know about me because I’m Black. Probably just where I’m from is probably the easiest thing. I’m from the small, little all white town called Oakwood, Kansas. There were literally– like when I say there were no Black people there, there were no– well, there were no Black children. There were like three Black people that lived in the town. And my brothers and I were the only Black children in the town in like a 60 mile radius. So.
Panama Jackson [00:41:12] So how did your family get there?
Jacinta Howard [00:41:13] My family has roots in a small town called Nicodemus, Kansas, in like, is actually like the first all-Black town settled west of the Mississippi. And so, like.
Panama Jackson [00:41:21] Like Nicodemus, like posse. Nicodemus Like from that kind of.
Jacinta Howard [00:41:25] Nicodemus Yeah.
Panama Jackson [00:41:27] Shouted out all through that movie.
Jacinta Howard [00:41:28] Yep. So if you actually go like, you know, it’s actually in, like the Black History Museum in D.C., like, you’ll see like this one of the towns is there. They have the Nicodemus sign. And yeah, there’s been like, you know, little mini documentaries and stuff about it. But both sides of my family have roots there. My mom’s side of the family, her dad, and then my dad’s side of the family, her mom. And then my dad’s father was a farmer that lived in western Kansas. So I just have like strong roots from Kansas, like farming roots, Black farmer roots. So. So, yeah, so that’s how we got there. Which people are always surprised to learn about me.
Panama Jackson [00:42:06] Yeah. I mean, the fact that you got– the town is in a Blacksonian. I’ll be looking for that next time I go over there Now, like, where’s this? Huh. Yeah, that is interesting. Okay. Interesting lives. Interesting lives. All right, well, do you have a Blackmendation for us? A recommendation for, by and about Black culture, something you think other folks, other Black folks need to be up on?
Jacinta Howard [00:42:30] Um, I always am going to champion Black romance. So, like, Black romance as a genre. I’m wearing my Black romance shirt. Um, basically it’s, it’s, you know, Black romance as a genre. It’s super important. Especially independent Black romance because women are telling their own stories, especially in an industry that’s been traditionally all white and gatekept. Gatekept, I don’t know if thats a word. Gatekeeping.
Panama Jackson [00:42:58] I know what you mean. That’s effective communication.
Jacinta Howard [00:43:02] Publishing industry. Right. Well, yeah. I mean, these are like really, really dope, extraordinary writers. And I say that as a person that reads all the time across, I read everything. But some of the best talent that I’ve come across is in the Black independent romance community specifically. And they’re trendsetters and they’re in control of their business, and they’re telling stories in a way that I’ve not seen before. And so, yeah, so that’s what I always champion.
Panama Jackson [00:43:31] So we’re going to do this without you mentioning that you’re in this space and one of the like leading leaders in this space. Are we just going to do that? Are you just not going to mention your own. Are we really doing this?
Jacinta Howard [00:43:40] I wouldn’t say I’m a leader in this sapce. I mean, as I write, Black Romance is well, I have quite a few book, I wouldn’t say.
Panama Jackson [00:43:48] No, no, no. Don’t do that.
Jacinta Howard [00:43:49] I’m a leader in this space.
Panama Jackson [00:43:51] How many books you got? Like how many books do you have at this point? I actually have no clue how many you have at this point. You have a lot.
Jacinta Howard [00:43:57] I have ten. I have ten.
Panama Jackson [00:43:59] I got a few books. Come on, now. Listen. This is your space to go ahead and– you talking about “These people do all these amazing things” like you ain’t these people. You won awards, haven’t you? Like, you’re an award– you won awards, right?
Jacinta Howard [00:44:13] Yes. I’ve won a couple awards.
Panama Jackson [00:44:15] Okay.
Jacinta Howard [00:44:15] Been nominated for a couple.
Panama Jackson [00:44:17] The humility of Black people is an amazing thing.
Jacinta Howard [00:44:20] Yeah. Yeah. So you should check it. Check out the community as a whole and check out me. JacintaHoward.net.
Panama Jackson [00:44:28] I was going to say. So tell people where they can find out more about the work that you’re doing, both Rock the Bells and personally with your writing and all the stuff, like where can people find out what you got going on?
Jacinta Howard [00:44:38] JacintaHoward.net. That’s just my website. And then you can find me on Instagram in all of the social places from the site. So I think that’s like– that’s the hub of everything. So yeah.
Panama Jackson [00:44:52] Well, thank you for coming to join us here, Dear Culture, to talk about these hip hop albums that mean a lot to– we were there when they dropped. In the same place as it turns out, when these albums dropped. And, you know, it’s crazy to be able to celebrate things 25 years later that are still resonant today. Like I still listen to Aquemini, like frequently you know, I still listen to the Black Star album sometimes more critically than others. But, you know, I still listen to these things. And the fact that it’s 25 years later is kind of scary and crazy, but it’s also kind of awesome that they still matter for a genre that people thought was a fad, right?
Jacinta Howard [00:45:32] Yeah, for sure. Yeah. Thank you for having the conversation, because this is one that I think is unique. I have heard a lot of people talk about this day in, you know, extensively so and it was such a big deal. So yeah, thank you for talking about it.
Panama Jackson [00:45:47] Yeah, I appreciate you and thank you to everybody for checking out Dear Culture here at theGrio Black Podcast Network. Make sure you check out all the other episodes. You know, thank you for joining us. Thank you, Jacinta, for joining us. And to everybody listening. Have a Black one.
Maiysha Kai [00:46:41] We started this podcast to talk about not just what Black writers write about, but how.
Ayana Gray [00:46:46] Well, personally it’s on my bucket list to have one of my books banned. I know that’s probably bad, but I think.
Maiysha Kai [00:46:52] Oh, spicy.
Charlayne Hunter-Gault [00:46:53] They were yelling N-word, Go home. And I was looking around for the N-word because I knew it couldn’t be me because I was the queen.
Keith Boykin [00:47:00] I am telling people to quit this mentality of identifying ourselves by our work. To start to live our lives and to redefine the whole concept of how we work and where we work and why we work in the first place.
Misty Copeland [00:47:16] My biggest strength throughout, throughout my career has been having incredible mentors and specifically Black women.
Omar Epps [00:47:22] I’ve been writing poetry since I was like eight. You know, I’ve been reading Langston Hughes and James Baldwin and Maya Angelou and so forth and so on, since I was like a little kid.
Rhiannon Giddens [00:47:31] Like the banjo was Blackity Black, right? For many, many, many years. Everybody knew.
Sam Jay [00:47:38] Because sometimes I’m just doing some Sam S*** that– because I just want to do it.
J. Ivy [00:47:44] Honored to be here. Thank you for doing the work that you doing. Keep shining bright. And like you said, we all keep Writing Black.
Maiysha Kai [00:47:51] As always, you can find us on theGrio app or wherever you find your podcasts.
