We’re Live at the Los Angles Times Festival of Books with Ty Hunter, Clarkisha Kent and Deborah D.E.E.P. Mouton
Episode 33Play
Writing Black host Maiysha Kai was invited to the LA Times Festival of Books to host a panel of brilliant and talented Black authors. The panel consisted of Clarkisha Kent, Deborah D.E.E.P. Mouton, and Ty Hunter, who all took time to speak about their craft of writing, how their identity plays a role in their writing and what is next for them. You do not want to miss out on this excellent panel and conversation.
Read full transcript below:
[00:00:00] You are now listening to theGrio’s Black Podcast Network. Black Culture Amplified.
Maiysha Kai [00:00:08] Hello and welcome to another episode of Writing Black. I am your host, Maiysha Kai, lifestyle editor here at theGrio. And this is a very, very special episode for me because unlike almost all of our other episodes, I got to do this one in person and I got to do it with three incredible writers. I was invited to moderate a panel for the L.A. Times Book Festival this year, and the panel was called Arts and Culture: Telling My Own Story. Now, that alone should tell you that this is going to be a very special episode. But my three guests were three incredible people, some of whom you might know as writers, some of whom you might not. In fact, one of those writers was Ty Hunter. Now, if you are a fashion person, you likely know Ty Hunter as the longtime stylist of Destiny’s Child and Beyonce. He now is the stylist for Billy Porter. But Ty is also a first time author, having put out his own memoir, Makeover From Within. Lessons in Hardship, Acceptance and Self-discovery, which was published by Chronicle Books. If you follow Ty, you know, he is a Texan like our favorite Queen B. And his book is about his journey from a young, confused kid in Austin, Texas, to working with some of the biggest stars in the world and all of the ups and downs that came with that. It’s a fascinating story, so much deeper than you might imagine. And he is just an amazing person to talk with. And he joined us on this panel.
Maiysha Kai [00:01:35] Alongside him was Clarkisha Kent. Clarkisha Kent is a Nigerian-American writer, culture critic, columnist, and she is now also the author of Fat Off Fat On a Big Bitch Manifesto published by Feminist Press. You know, Clarkisha is so interesting. What she’s accomplished before the tender age of 30 is amazing in and of itself. But what she reveals in her memoir is such a candid and poignant back story and one that I think a lot of people will really relate to. And hearing her talk about, it was just so insightful and inspiring. Also inspiring is the book Black Chameleon Memory, Womanhood and Myth by Deborah D.E.E.P. Mouton. If you know Deborah, she’s an internationally known writer, director, performer, critic and the first Black poet laureate of Houston, Texas. And Black Chameleon is one of the most fascinating memoirs I probably ever read. For its format alone, it’s told like a book of fables or myths that really sent her womanhood and Blackness and beauty and parenthood. And she wrote it as a way to explain certain aspects of life to her own child. And that’s one of the most beautiful things about the narrative. But what was really striking about our collective conversation, which took place on the campus of the University of Southern California, is that each of these authors, you know, finding their way to telling their story, there’s challenges, there’s a lot of craft and process that is revealed. And there’s also a cathartic nature to telling your own story and whether or not you feel that your story is worthy is is one thing. But I think in the end, the takeaway for me was that there’s no wrong way to tell your story. So without further ado, let’s get into this incredible conversation with Ty, Clarkisha and Deborah.
Maiysha Kai [00:03:21] That brings me to a question I’m going to direct to all of you, which is that, you know, we all have a story to tell, but having the confidence to tell the story, feeling that the story is worthy doesn’t always happen and then opportunity doesn’t always happen. So how did that process start and how did you really, I guess, get over the imposter syndrome that I think all of us have about knowing that your story was worth telling.
Ty Hunter [00:03:44] But, you know, just all the obstacles I’ve been through and the trials and tribulations, it was important for me to let people know you still can do and make it and do anything you want to do and nothing can get in the way of that. And so it was important for me to do this. I first did a book that was on hold and everybody wanted me to do a styling book, and I was so against it. Because even if you follow me on social media, you know that you wouldn’t even know that I was a stylist. I feel like my purpose here is to make people feel better and to really motivate them and make them laugh. Sometimes, as you know, my page is crazy. I’m so crazy, pray for me. But it is important to let people know that you can overcome things. So this process actually took about five years because I did like started, like a styling book and everybody wanted me to do styling, but I wanted to tell my story. I wanted people to get to know me because people don’t know that side of me. They just know me for being with Destiny’s Child or Beyoncé, so it was important. And I’m just happy that I finally got a team that was like, you know, when I tell people what I’ve been through, they’re like, This is a movie and like, let me get the book out firt. So, you know, I’m just happy because, you being my friend didn’t know this and people didn’t know, like even my mom and my church members. Like I was just telling them, you know, backstage, like when you tell your story, you are also telling people story that’s part of your storytelling. That’s like changing names and that whole uncomfortable feeling of just anxiety of like, Oh my God, how is my church going to take this, how is my family members, and my exes. But, you know, it was just important to just bypass all that. I changed names and I really wanted people to get to know me and just get to know. I feel that my story really relates. You will find something in there that relates to you to just help you get through. And I do these tie takeaways at the end of each chapter. It’s like I went this way, but I wouldn’t change that because it made me who I am. But I also made it a point to give people like a blueprint. You should probably go this way because I went that way.
Maiysha Kai [00:06:00] It is really inspiring. And I would say the same for all of these books. You know, I know Clarkisha in your book, the function of family is similar in the sense of, you know, you can’t tell your story without telling theirs.
Clarkisha Kent [00:06:13] Yeah.
Maiysha Kai [00:06:13] But it is a difficult story to read. So I can only imagine how it was to write it, to relive those moments. Did you have any trepidation about that? Or was it, Oh no, we put it all out here?
Clarkisha Kent [00:06:27] I think there was a mix of both in terms of but it’s one of those things where, you know, if you didn’t treat me right that’s on you. So that, that and that part was easy. Like, well, I’m going to if I tell it, I’m going to tell it in full, obviously. But, you know, it was hard to because it requires a very specific type of vulnerability, because I’m essentially letting people into like the dysfunction that I was a witness of. So that part was hard. But, you know, this the memoir, right. This is the art form. You can’t phone it in, you know, because people can tell when you didn’t bring everything to a memoir, like when you just kind of put, like what you thought people wanted to read in verses like what should actually be in there? So I tried to approach it as honestly as I could to.
Maiysha Kai [00:07:15] And it is honest and is raw. And again, at times it’s difficult to read. It’s also really hard to turn away. And I do think that true story for so many people will resonate. I think, you know, especially those people who come from families where. And this isn’t, I think, not exclusive to Black families, but there is definitely that thing with parents who discipline in a way that is punitive. It’s damning in many ways, and it can be really devastating, you know. Deborah, you have a couple of passages in your book that I was also like those rough. There’s a whole story in your book, and I don’t want to spoil it for people, but I do want people to know just how, like Incredibly told this is one of my favorite of the I don’t even know what to call them. You call them all parables? Do you call them chapters? How would you refer to it.
Deborah D.E.E.P. Mouton [00:08:04] You know, myths.
Maiysha Kai [00:08:06] Okay. One of the myths and this also leans into another very specific aspect of Blackness and anti-Blackness, which is colorism is this idea of your half sister having the Black beaten off of her, in a very literal sense, has everything to do with that style of discipline that we’re talking about that is well-meaning but can be really devastating. When you’re turning something like that. This phrase that we hear all the time as kids and and also relates very much to skin color, colorism, etc. It’s being white presenting, being Black presenting, the meaning of that, the meaning of community. I mean, you got a lot done in a few pages there.
Deborah D.E.E.P. Mouton [00:08:45] Thank you.
Maiysha Kai [00:08:46] Like, how do you transform that into the mythological like, you know, it was so effective to me.
Deborah D.E.E.P. Mouton [00:08:51] I think for me it was thinking about how do I take it to the farthest extreme of what it could possibly be. You know, we say beat the Black of you, you think violence. But if beat the Black off of you literally means to take the color off of you. To let you live in a world where your color is no longer a place of refuge for you. What does that mean? And then I guess back channeling. What is the promise then that your mother is giving you in saying if you continue down this behavior, right, this is the consequence, it’s going to come to you. I think that there’s many more layers to discipline in the Black community specifically than just you got it wrong and we’re going to spank you. Right. It’s it’s deep seated in enslavement. Deep seated it in kind of this precursor that we’re going to get to the punishment before someone who doesn’t have the grace that we have to get to. It comes behind us. You know.
Maiysha Kai [00:09:37] It’s protective.
Deborah D.E.E.P. Mouton [00:09:38] It’s protective. And I think, you know, you have to be able to see all of that and not just what people see as violence.
Maiysha Kai [00:09:45] Yeah, And it’s so nuanced. I think that is what makes it so magical, as I keep saying, because, you know, it could have been a very flat telling. But I also think that you so effectively do this thing where so much of the Black existence and so much of what we fight against is this alignment with whiteness, right? This need to be accepted. In this other way. And what is dealt with in this moment is what it means not to no longer have the home, to no longer have this issue based, this this identity. So effective. Thank you for revisiting that. Because of the many myths, that was one that I was like, wow. And we’ll be right back with more Writing Black.
Maiysha Kai [00:10:31] Okay. And we are back with more Writing Black. And there’s a lot of intimacy in all of these books, you know, emotional intimacy, sexual intimacy. And again, we get to talk about these layers. They’re happening with these intersecting identities, including in the coming out story, you know, or the sexual awakening, if you will. I would say it’s probably more accurate. I see this most clearly illustrated in both of your stories. And I know for you, obviously it’s incredibly complicated, not just by the church, which often becomes a factor, but obviously by the fact that you’re also becoming a father at the same time. Do you mind sharing a little bit with us about the process of writing about that? I mean, you’re trying to obviously be really honest about how that took place, but also protects those loved ones.
Ty Hunter [00:11:21] It was hard. You know, like I talked about, you know, switching people’s name and also just everybody found out about the everything at the same time. I didn’t say I’m writing a book. It was just like, boom book. And then like, literally, like it was really, really hard. And I just like, I was telling them backstage to that one of the lovers that I talk about I hadn’t, I’ve been like, avoiding the calls and all that. And he called on Easter and it was like he didn’t mention the book. So I was like, okay, cool. But no, it was really, really hard. But I like I said, I was I did a speaking in Austin, Texas for the the library there. And all the people that, most of the people that I talk about in my book, church members and all that stuff, they showed up and everybody was so supportive and it was like it’s your story. So, you know, you just got to go for it, you know, and just let it be what it is because it’s all the truth and it’s my story.
Maiysha Kai [00:12:35] And that’s fair. Clarkisha, You know, yours is happening in real time. It feels like, you know, because, you know, at this age, some of these events are like within the last 5 to 10 years, I assume that they happen. And and it is, I think, very reflective of on one hand, it’s something I’m really envious of is that increasing openness about being able to talk about sexuality. But there’s still it’s so fraught.
Clarkisha Kent [00:13:04] Yeah.
Maiysha Kai [00:13:04] And so you know it’s romantic in many ways. And you also do that you do this thing that I, you know, I really admire. I’ve not mastered it yet myself as a writer. You write an actual love scene. A couple of them. Talk about that for us. This is an art form, so I want to know.
Clarkisha Kent [00:13:24] I will say so writing those scenes, the the my “coming out story,” which I put on quotations because it’s always it’s a different ballgame for Black people like we don’t have the benefit a lot of times to like roll out the red carpet and do the do the fanfare like we have to really negotiate how we’re going to do it depending on our backgrounds and our families. So for this, the fact that I was a late bloomer, I hate that terminology, but late bloomer really kind of helped me kind of get over the initial, I would say, nervousness or anxiety about putting those experiences out in the open, mainly because, you know, when you’re a queer person but like a queer Black person, sex is interesting for us anyway because we’re still trying to navigate and what that means for us, those labels, everything like that. So I really wanted to just kind of be honest about like the messiness of it all, but also make it interesting. Like everybody likes a good romance, so I was like let me just put some in there, some flavor in there for y’all while ya’ll here. So, you know, I wanted it to be, you know, truthful, vulnerable, but also very entertaining, too, because, you know, this is still a memoir. Yeah. You know, that’s one of the functions of it, too. Like, you are telling a story, but, you know, people are here for the juicy part too. Put a little in there.
Maiysha Kai [00:14:45] Well, you know, what you also do that so effective. You mean you refer to your rom com brain quite a bit and book. And I love it because I love the rom com. But you know, again, in so doing you are casting yourself. You’re self-identified Black first gen dark skinned fat self as the heroine in this rom com, and I was so thrilled to see it because, you know, yeah, that doesn’t always happen and that’s why I thought it was so, I guess imperfectly perfect in the telling because you position a heroine we don’t see enough. So thank you for that. Deborah, another thing that keeps coming up here in these discussions and it’s always going to bring me back to you is the faith and spirituality piece, because what we’re hearing across the board is it’s both affirming and inhibiting. I think your book probably most clearly deals with it on the surface level from the very beginning. You’re bring us into that realm. So I think you’re the perfect person to talk about using spirituality as a vehicle in a narrative why that is significant and how you kind of continue to flesh out. I know you talked a bit about trying to figure out what you believed and your first answer was Jesus, but how did you start to plumb those depths a little bit deeper and then, of course, start to create your own myths? Because it feels very real. It feels very like, you know, you just open the book of the fairy tales of the myths and or the or even parables and here it is.
Deborah D.E.E.P. Mouton [00:16:21] Yeah. I think for me, when I’m a pastor’s kid and the good one put that out there. But, you know, so I think that that’s part of it is having been entrenched in that culture for so long, it kind of pours out of you, I think, also in thinking about, you know, I have a degree in African-American studies and for me, in thinking about the South as a kind of motherland for Black people in this country, and then the church has to be part of that motherland, right. Because it was so prevalent in the ways that we structured our culture, you know, and to move beyond just a belief system but into something that really ushered our days. Right. And so I wanted to find a way to embrace that part of Black culture and the South of it, also the church of it, you know, and I think the church for us is a space that is spiritual beyond just one kind of religion. I think for us, you know, we have always been a people that have fuzed many things together and found a way to still make it our authentic selves. And so I wanted it to feel like that, you know, I wanted to by the end of it, you feel like you’re in a church service in the best kind of way. You feel redeemed in some way, you feel seen in some way. I think one of the first questions I ask myself in thinking about writing the theology, which was blasphemous from the start, was What is a Black woman and God have in common? And my answer was to be believed. Right. And if I’m going to convince you to believe in me as a Black woman, as maybe a God, what are the things you need to know about me to get you to a level of faith, right? That you can hear me as honest and true. And so that for me, you know, kind of is a through line to the book.
Maiysha Kai [00:17:50] And a very resonant line. But I Yes, yes. And I’m going to be borrowing that. But what I love about what do Black women and God have in common? To be believed. Because we often see that we’re not and then so vital. Yes. Say that there’s also the physicality of it all. You know, you’re telling a story, but you’re telling a story about real people and bodies, real experiences, real traumas. All three of you have an experience of physical trauma that happens at some points within these narratives that changes the whole trajectory of everything here. And I can’t help but imagine that it’s like, you know, having never had having yet to attempt the memoir myself, but I can’t help but imagine that there’s some visceral memory there of like, what happens, you know, again, like, I didn’t know you had ever been shot, which is like such a major thing and for you was such a pivotal thing. Let’s talk about that part of it, the physical part of it, the ability I know for you too, it also manifests in this like reframing of what ability is and how this ability and especially for you, Clarkisha, you write about that a lot. So I want to get into that topic a little bit because I think that that’s something we don’t talk enough about. It’s so real to so many people. So revisiting.
Ty Hunter [00:19:16] Being shot.
Maiysha Kai [00:19:17] Being shot. Which I was like, ‘Oh’
Ty Hunter [00:19:22] I’m originally from Austin, Texas, And Austin during that time was very Black or white, no gray. It was of Blacks over here, whites over here. And if you wanted to mingle a little bit, you go to a place called Sixth Street. But it was madness. I worked and I used to work in the medical field. I used to work on artificial heart valves. I used to sit under a microscope and work on artificial heart valves and and made really, really good money. And my birthday was in five days. And we had we had just elevated to like a bigger position or something like that. So we had a party for us and the party was down the street from the nightclub where my people be at. So I’m like, I’m going to do the fun thing with the work people and then I’m a go to the club. So I went and during this time, my favorite song was Lenny Kravitz, It Ain’t Over till It’s Over. My company bought, my birthday was in five days. So this party ended up being like a birthday being too. So they end up giving me a Walkman and the CD, this shows my age. I’ll be 51 in August. But I got the Walkman and the cassette tape of It Ain’t Over Till It’s Over. So I’m there and then I’m like, Let’s just go to, the other Black guy that was there I was like, Let’s just walk down here for a minute and come back up. So in the process we go down. I see everybody I haven’t seen in a while and I literally joked with him, I’m like, I must be about to die tonight because I’m like seeing, like, it was the best time ever. And I even go in the club yet. Like it was in the parking lot and it was like running into people, it was like the energy. Finally I had to use the restroom. I go to the restroom and the line is too long and me being a male is like, okay, I can use the restroom behind the club. And as I go behind the club, these guys showed up with guns and I put them up to my head and they like, Where is it? And they end up shooting me a both of my leg. And it was a process. But I’m, as sick as this sounds, I’m glad it happened because it it showed me that even being a good person, bullets don’t have a face and you just have to be aware of your surroundings. So this club is known for having fights and shoots and shootouts and stuff like every now and then. So why am I going here? And so it just really made me really evaluate myself and just know that one, be careful and two, it ain’t over till it’s over.
Maiysha Kai [00:21:45] You know? And there was a whole period that you weren’t sure if you were going to be able to keep up.
Ty Hunter [00:21:48] Yeah, I had to learn to walk. I was in a wheelchair walking and all that stuff, and it was a process.
Maiysha Kai [00:21:56] Clarkisha yours was interesting to me. Your incident. You went to college down the street from where I live now in High Park in Chicago. University of Chicago. Shout out. So much of your your injury as it were. So again, like part of the assimilation story, you know, you’re trying to be a certain size. You’re trying to fit into a certain scheme with devastating results, you know, and which still affect you today. Am I reading that correctly? Is it, you know, did it feel like some sort of betrayal of your body? Did it feel.
Clarkisha Kent [00:22:36] Yes, absolutely.
Maiysha Kai [00:22:38] Yeah. Tell me about tell me about that. Like just writing about it and and what it looks like to you now versus what it looked like to you then.
Clarkisha Kent [00:22:45] Yes. So the injury so a torn ACL in college was like the second going into third year college. And it was particularly devastating at that point because I was, you know, trying to do the thing in college where trying to be super fit, trying to avoid the so-called freshman 15, which there’s another conversation to be had another day. But yeah, so I went really hard and, you know, part of that was direct into sports because very competitive sport. I have a lot of Aries in my chart. So as you know, we love sports, we love shadow competition. I was trying to be my best, trying to be number one, but also, you know, trying to keep the weight off because that was also the other motivation to not a great motivation, but, you know, so when I did tear my ACL during that life faithful soccer game, I was very angry because I finally that I was like on the right path technically. But obviously finding out throughout that journey, struggling with trying to, you know, physically walk again, struggling with also figuring out how to eat. Because since I was stationary, I was gaining a lot of weight too, and that was messing with my head. So it did feel like this huge betrayal because I was like, okay, I’m doing what I’m supposed to do, so why would my body do this to me? But then come to find out, you know, I wasn’t doing right by my body, which probably led up to the injury. So it was a long, tough process, but it taught me a lot of things in terms of like returning back because I wasn’t actually present in my body for a long time, you know, and just kind of going through the motions and being on autopilot and not really being content, starving her, all these things. Right. But also important lessons she taught me in that in like, like physically getting me to sit down to reflect about my life. She taught me that, you know, the whole able body thing is very temporary. It’s a temporary experience. That’s why we all collectively fear getting old, because we know what happens when we get old. So I think that’s why it’s important now to start that work. Yeah, I think that’s all I would say.
Maiysha Kai [00:24:47] I think that’s a lot to say and I think it’s incredibly relatable. But we were having conversation before we got up here. You prompted a question that I think is one of the best ones you could ask for the memoir. You know, I was like, none of these people are in old age, yet. And I hope they all get there. And, you know, telling your story at this stage is, you know, again, it speaks to that, Like, how do you know you have a story to tell yet? You know, da da da da. But also, what we don’t always talk about with the memoir is what doesn’t make it to the page. I would love for each of you, and I’ll start with you, Deborah, to share with us that process of like kind of editing yourself down, making sure that your story remains cohesive and that you’re not kind of just throwing everything at the wall because it is, you know, trauma that you need to work out.
Deborah D.E.E.P. Mouton [00:25:42] Yeah, I mean, omission is definitely a place I was intentional about in the book. You know, I do talk about sexual assault in my book, and the one story I’d never tell you is when it actually happened, because you really need to know that, right? Do you really need to see another story of that? I think especially as Black women, we have seen that on film on stage so much. And instead I tell you all the times where it almost happened because I feel like it’s equally important for you to know not only this time that someone conquered me in some way, but also all the times that I escaped. All the times that I fought it off, that I didn’t ask it. That just kind of centered around me. And so I think definitely I was thinking through that. There’s also, you know, other stories that just didn’t fit the arc of where I wanted to go with the book. And so there’s this great story that’s not great because of what happened. But my father’s, my grandfather was visited by this cult of women who all pray for him in this very creepy way. And within a week, everyone starts to die in the house. The bird dies first, the dog dies. This is really a thing that happened and my grandfather dies within about a month of that. And I had this story and it was definitely leaning more horror because I was like, I love horror. I was like, Let’s do that. But when I sat down to try to put the book together, it just did it do the thing that I needed to do. So I think as you come with the editing, I to the work, it’s it is about the individual stories and the individual moments, but it’s also about the overall arching, you know, arc of what is the thing I want the audience to leave with. And I think all of us have had to do that work of thinking about what makes it in in that way.
Maiysha Kai [00:27:10] Yeah. Clarkisha, how did it show up for you?
Clarkisha Kent [00:27:13] For me, it was trying to decide if I should put more scenes about my family or also trying to decide if I wanted to add more to, like my separate, like, romantic journeys. And, you know, I decided to essentially keep the cute, as we were say. Because you don’t want to give too much away, you know, because sometimes you mess up the mystique. Sometimes you want to, like you want to bring the audience in. You want to be vulnerable with them. You want it to be intimate, but you don’t want to like, again, shred the mystique. Like, there should always be some sort of mystery there about the story, where it goes. You know, I’ve said so many times in terms of like modern media, right, that sometimes we don’t know how to end things. We don’t know how to bring them to a close. You’ll be watching a show that’s been on for 50 seasons, like no disrespect, but at some point we do want to you know, we want to wind the story down. So that’s kind of what I was thinking with those particular stories. And then also is my thing, too, where like sometimes I don’t want to say everything. Sometimes they’re some stories they’re just for me, you know?
Maiysha Kai [00:28:19] I like that. I like that a lot. And you are dead on about closure. What did editing and omission look like for you?
Ty Hunter [00:28:26] Saving lives.
Maiysha Kai [00:28:30] Please explain.
Ty Hunter [00:28:31] No, just like what the lady said. I don’t know. It was so juicy, like this book was so juicy. You know, take that out. I don’t even want to give that person that kind of attention. It’s just like some people just don’t deserve that type of attention. So you just strip it, strip it and put that, you know, more of, you know, things that are more important. And that’s kind of how it was just saving lives. Is what I say. Now, if anything goes to film, trust me, I will be putting some this stuff in there. But for now.
Maiysha Kai [00:29:10] You alluded to it a few times .I’m waiting to hear about the deal, OK.
Ty Hunter [00:29:13] But yeah, it’s not worth it. And you know, I love the fact that some people will grab this book and don’t see anything about them.
Maiysha Kai [00:29:21] They’re not part of your story?
Ty Hunter [00:29:23] No, it’s not even worth it.
Maiysha Kai [00:29:32] Well, I’m going to continue with you for a second because I think when we think of memoir, at least when I think of memoir, I speak for myself. I do think of something that feels cathartic. I have come to understand from different writers that’s not always the case. Was this a cathartic experience for you? And how?
Ty Hunter [00:29:50] It was, because I’ve never been in therapy, never. Just I’ve always been everybody else’s therapist. And so when you finally write things out and relive things, you kind of understand patterns of why things happened the way they do. I truly believe everything. Happens the way it’s supposed to. It was a learning experience simply because, like me and my dad’s relationship really didn’t get as close as it did until his final days. Both of my parents were diagnosed with cancer at the same time, and my dad, I never left his side. And I learned so much about him. And I learned that me being a gay man, and all the men in my life treated me special like my uncles and cousins. Like we’ll play football and they wouldn’t tackle me. They’ll be like you scored, you know, they always treated me a little bit better, and they saw something in me before I saw it myself. I learned so much about my dad and he took me to Diana Ross concert when I was a kid. My dad is so into sports and I never paid attention until I started writing the book. It’s like, Why would this man take me to, oh and that is what sparked and that is what sparked and made me become who I am today is Diana Ross. And so, you know, when you finally lay things out, you kind of understand why things happened the way they did. So that that was my therapy. This whole book, you know, a little shaky because, you know, it is touching.
Maiysha Kai [00:31:17] It is saying, I’m glad. That is a gorgeous answer. Clarkisha, how was it cathartic for you?
Clarkisha Kent [00:31:25] Ty really spelled it out. It’s like when I also process by writing. So there were a lot of sentiments and feelings about my initial upbringing in my childhood that were kind of resolved for me because one of the things like, I don’t talk to any of my family anymore. I went no contact with all of them, which more of us should do. Just let ya’ll know though. You know, there are things I couldn’t talk to him about anymore because I don’t you know, I don’t talk to them, period. So having it written out on paper in the book was just phenomenal in terms of like finally making those connections as to like, Ty said, why this happened and how this happened and why it had to happen like this. Because sometimes we don’t like that. And there are some things that happen to me that I wish I didn’t. But then they know that they kind of had to happen to get me to where I am now. So yeah, it was very cathartic in that sense, like just making connections that I couldn’t make all those years ago and kind of making my life makes sense now, too.
Maiysha Kai [00:32:30] Mm hmm. I like that idea of, like, making things make sense. And, you know, for our writer at the end here, Deborah, who is a captain, entire mythology about it, how did this kind of, like, close those circles for you?
Deborah D.E.E.P. Mouton [00:32:45] I mean, I definitely had a lot of pieces that I hadn’t talked to people in my family about. And then those open doors in the same ways or I wrestle with things. But one of the biggest kind of surprise moments of catharsis for me was in crafting mythology. And one of the myths is centered on my daughter at six years old comes to me and she’s freaking out and I’m like, What’s wrong? And she’s like, I don’t have a thigh gap. I said Why at six do you care? You know, Why is that? But but that’s right, the world she lives in and how she sees the world around her. And to be able to craft a myth that explains to her, like your knees kiss because somewhere in your past, you know, there was a village of alligators, and the only way to get away from them was to sway your hips in a way that hypnotized everyone. Right? And like, baby, your body is built of survival, right? Like there is everything in you is right. And to see her see that as, like, utter truth, there’s no other option in her mind. And to know that that’s the kind of work that I’m writing is one that lets young girls, let’s women now see themselves in a way that reclaims something, that closes the gaps for them. As much as there’s parts of it for me, I think that that community part, which probably the part that I’m the most proud of and the part that resonates in me, you know, going forward.
Maiysha Kai [00:33:55] I love that answer and I loved all three of these books and that we can really sit and talk about them all day. But I also want to give you all a chance to ask questions about these writers because there’s so much to dig into here. Also, again, I want to thank the L.A. Times for taping this session, so it will be available also on theGrio Podcast Network. Got to put that in there. But are there any questions? I’m going to start right here in the middle.
Audience Member 1 [00:34:25] I have two questions. The first one I’m going to direct to Deborah. I’ve read a lot of autobiographies, and yet in reading yours, it was reading more lyrical and very poetic. It was a very different style of writing than I’ve ever read before. And it was so much fun to read because I’m not, the first to say, I like the whole lyricism. Did you do it naturally or was it very, very, very intentional?
Deborah D.E.E.P. Mouton [00:34:54] Sure, I will say I was intentional to make myself sound better, but the reality is I’m a poet and that’s never going to change. I tried to stop being a poet and then it’s like the trees moved with such like, Oh, I here it goes again. So I think that everything I write just has a certain lyricism to it. And I’ve kind of started to learn how to embrace that as as my brand, as my style, instead of fighting against it and trying to be something else. Yeah.
Audience Member 1 [00:35:21] Okay. My second question. Unless you want some else. I don’t know. .
Maiysha Kai [00:35:25] You got the mic.
Audience Member 1 [00:35:28] Anyway, my second question is I’m a writer and I will never write my autobiography because it means ripping off the scabs and showing everyone your scars, the pain. What was your turning point when you realized you would have to do this it would be an incredibly painful experience, and yet you had to work through what was a motivation, an intention, a goal to do it and to do it, period.
Maiysha Kai [00:36:00] All right. Well, we started this and last time, Deborah, I’m on set with you and we work our way back.
Deborah D.E.E.P. Mouton [00:36:03] Sure. I’ve spent most of my career as a performance poet. Okay. And overshare. And so getting on stage and sharing all of my business has been something I’ve done for over a decade. I wouldn’t call this painful. You know, I think that there was actually a visibility that was that was quite enjoyable in writing the book of knowing that I would be able to, like, not have to hold the secrets anymore. Like I could put them down and literally put them down and walk away from them. And it didn’t mean that they didn’t exist anymore. I just meant that I didn’t have to carry them. And so I think that there is an unburdening that comes with autobiography and with writing memoir that if seen through that lens there’s a freedom in it that’s much less a burden. Yeah,.
Maiysha Kai [00:36:43] You might have just convinced me.
Deborah D.E.E.P. Mouton [00:36:44] Come on, now. Let’s go.
Maiysha Kai [00:36:46] Clarkisha.
Clarkisha Kent [00:36:48] Well, similar to Deborah, have, like, done, like, public work in that I’ve written countless articles about, like, snippets of my life and sometimes the dramatic points. But yeah. I definitely did have like a shit hits the fan moment when talking about my family because I also had to talk about particular sibling relationship that was painful that I hadn’t talked about at length in my other work. So once I kind of got on that subject, I was like, Okay, this is definitely the point where like I could say, fuck it and not talk about this, or I could be honest and talk about it. And mostly because once again, when you’re queer, you’re Black, and our relationships with our families are so complex. So I thought about that and I was like, Well, I can’t find it. And even if I want to, because that was a very intrinsic part of my story. Like I really had to think about that. Like, do I want to half ass much story? Do I want to have holes in it or do I want to tell something that’s for one complete? So yeah, I really had to like, punch my pride in the face a lot while writing this book and I think it was a good exercise. I feel like more of us should undergo some ego deaths. It’s necessary. I feel like if more people did that, our world might not look as crazy right now.
Maiysha Kai [00:38:07] If that’s not an endorsement, I don’t know what is. Again, I’m feeling encouraged. Ty?
Ty Hunter [00:38:15] I’ve always been transparent and I would definitely say my anxiety during this book was basically trying to save other people pain, like worry about other people because I’m that kind of guy. But I had to bite the bullet and just say, go. And, you know, once you turned 50, you just, this tongue, just do what I do. You don’t care. But yet it’s very freeing. I feel very light. Once I did, the anxiety was like the first three days of the release date because of the people that I do talk about. But being that I change their names, they know who they are. So like, you get it. Cause I saw. I’m such as I. Yes, you are. But yeah, it’s, it’s a freeing experience and you feel lighter and. Yeah, I’m glad I did it. I wouldn’t. I wouldn’t change a thing.
Maiysha Kai [00:39:05] I love it. Next question. Yes.
Audience Member 2 [00:39:10] My question weighs to naming people. And so how do you weigh the balance of, like changing someone’s name when you’re writing something like nonfiction and like actually including the name.
Maiysha Kai [00:39:25] It is loaded?
Ty Hunter [00:39:26] Well, like I said, they know who they are. But, you know, when you tell your story, you’re telling the story of other people as well. So it’s like if you’re not going to communicate with that person, then it’s important to like for their privacy. And I mean, people do the math and add it up to but you just got to go for it. And that’s what I did and just have been blessed because there was no backlash or anything like that. And each person that I did talk about, I was able to communicate with and they were like, Great, it’s your story and it’s the truth. And so I was blessed that I didn’t have any bad karma with mine as of yet. You know, when things get bigger, things tend to do a remake.
Maiysha Kai [00:40:11] That’s true.
Ty Hunter [00:40:12] People staying prayed up.
Maiysha Kai [00:40:14] I thought you actually quite graceful.
Ty Hunter [00:40:15] With.
Maiysha Kai [00:40:16] Of people.
Ty Hunter [00:40:17] Until it was time to do a film, I’m going in.
Maiysha Kai [00:40:21] Okay, it’s gonna get juicy. You do a lot of this as well, Clarkisha, a lot of pseudonyms.
Clarkisha Kent [00:40:28] A lot of pseudonyms. Yes. So I’m going to be honest with you, a lot of it has to do with legalities. You know, I’m not I get sued. I’m too sexy to be sued. But anyways, that was that was part of it. As a survivor too, of lots of abuse, you have to be worried about that because even if you are telling your story and you’re telling the correct story, there might be someone out there that doesn’t want you to tell that particular story. So you got to cover your ass. And so that’s kind of what I was thinking about when I was writing, like, I want to tell the story, but I want to give myself enough, I guess, plausible deniability so that if this person decides to come out, that’s on you because no one actually knew who you were. You then identify yourself. So it’s one of those things where, like I kind of wanted to create a catch 22 situation for that person. So that’s kind of how I thought of it. Like first protect myself. But also in the event that you do decide to come out this year.
Maiysha Kai [00:41:25] Now, you were obviously writing mythology, but how did you handle the situation?
Deborah D.E.E.P. Mouton [00:41:30] Yeah, I thought about it. If I was going to honor you, I was going to name your name. And if I wasn’t, then I change your name. So I left actually a lot of original names. And then I took some people who I wanted to dishonor, and I made them a God and another name that was just a villain, right? And was like, Ha ha, you’re over there. There’s your name, it’s over there. And so I think, you know, being able to bend that line, I also decided to do things like incorporate other names because I was able to create characters, right? So I created a character named Acirema. If anybody studies sociology, it’s just America backwards. And America is the God of Doubts. Because why wouldn’t it be? It does make us doubt ourselves. And so thinking about things like that of how do I bring in red lining, How do I bring in America, you know, these other things kind of tied into how I use names within the book.
Maiysha Kai [00:42:17] All right. There is a question right down here. From a special little person. We love this stuff. I know already we love the question.
Audience Member 3 [00:42:24] What inspired you to write a book about your life?
Maiysha Kai [00:42:28] Clarkisha, why don’t you get us started?
Clarkisha Kent [00:42:29] So initially I actually didn’t. The book came about because of my agent, shourt out Claire Draper of The Bent Agency. I initially wanted to write a Western, which is still in the works, still in the works.
Maiysha Kai [00:42:42] I love this.
Clarkisha Kent [00:42:42] But, you know, I was talking to them and, you know, Westerns is a niche, right? And you know, I’m a new writer, so they’re like, I like that idea, but consider this. And they were like, Why don’t you do a memoir? I didn’t think, like you stated earlier, I didn’t think I’m old enough. I was like, I’m not even 30 yet, but sometimes it takes somebody else close to your circle to let you know that you do actually have a story to tell. A lot of stories to tell, actually. So they’re like, you know, I watched you the last couple years and you’ve given us a lot and I feel like it’s time to really, like put it together. So after that I was like, okay, let’s do it. So that’s kind of how I came to be.
Maiysha Kai [00:43:22] And aren’t we glad it did? Deborah back to you.
Deborah D.E.E.P. Mouton [00:43:25] Yeah, I’ve been writing about my life for a long time, so it was just about thinking about if I wanted to put it in a book or not. Be like I could have done a lot of things. I could have made a stage play, I could have written an opera, I could have done it in a lot of different forms.
Maiysha Kai [00:43:36] She’s done all these things.
Deborah D.E.E.P. Mouton [00:43:37] But a book felt like it was something that could live on beyond me in a different way, where it could live with people and people could live with it. You know, the beauty about a book is you don’t have to buy a ticket a million times to read it over and over again. You bought it once and it lives with you. And so I wanted my story to be able to live with people like that.
Maiysha Kai [00:43:58] It’s my favorite thing about books. Ty?
Ty Hunter [00:44:00] It just felt like time. It just, you know, during COVID. I was face-timing friends and just wasting days. And it’s like, okay, let me be productive and do something. And I’ve always wanted to tell my story. They wanted me to do a styling book. But once I started telling people my story, they was like, This should be a movie. This should be a book. And so that’s kind of how it happened during COVID, and I’m just glad I completed it. I never had author in my to do list, but, you know, like I said, like she was saying, like, you communicate your life sometimes to people and their like This should be a book. And it just felt like the timing was right.
Maiysha Kai [00:44:37] Do you all take the time to congratulate yourselves for this incredible feat and how you make people feel and how all of us, even some people haven’t read these books yet, feel like they are relating to. Go Deborah.
Deborah D.E.E.P. Mouton [00:44:50] No, I want to be honest with you. I know I suck at it. You know, my husband will tell you, like, I just like next thing, right? And I need to be better at it. So I’m just not going to lie. No, I don’t. And I should be better. And you’re reminding me to be better. So thank you.
Maiysha Kai [00:45:04] Clarkisha.
Deborah D.E.E.P. Mouton [00:45:04] Same way. Once, you know, I accomplished one goal. I’m like, okay, what’s next? So I really haven’t sucken in yet. Like, my book came on March, March 7th. So I keep forgetting that’s the way it happened. It’s very recent. I should do that more, but I don’t.
Ty Hunter [00:45:22] I would have to say I felt it and when I started doing it because of, Beyonce wrote the foreword and so she gave me flowers and Billy Porter wrote the afterword. He gave me flowers. And on the back of the book I had contacted people that I admire and loved, and they all wrote from Tina Knowles to Michelle Williams, Kelly Rowland, Rosario Dawson, Billy Porter, Jennifer Hudson, Tichina Arnold, Kelly Osborne and Naomi Campbell all gave me flowers. So it was like just the overall. This whole process has been uplifting. I pat myself on the back all the time.
Maiysha Kai [00:45:58] Love that. If you won’t congratulate yourselves, I would love to congratulate you. I’m sure that our audience would love to congratulate you on the incredible feat of telling your own story. We want to thank the L.A. Times Book Festivial, the crew, the volunteers, our engineer back there who’s taping this, all of you who attended, thank you so much. Please get into these Books. Guys, hold your books up, please. So the people know. We got Black Chameleon by Deborah Mouton. Deborah D.E.E.P Mouton. Scuse me. Fat On, Fat Off by Clarkisha Kent and Makeover From Within by Ty Hunter. I’m Maiysha Kai, you can find me at theGrio. Thank you guys so much for having us. And we’ll be right back with more Writing Black.
Maiysha Kai [00:46:46] Okay. And we are back with more Writing Black. Now, of course, in the context of that incredible conversation, my favorites this week might be a little bit obvious. I highly recommend Make over From Within. Fat On, Fat Off and Black chameleon. However, one of the things that fascinated me so much about this conversation was the different forms a memoir can take. Like how creative we can get in telling our own stories. And so another one that I would recommend that I just think is so incredible is the book Dear Senthuran. And this is a book by a Nigerian author, Akwaeke Emezi who is a non-binary author. I think I’ve probably mentioned them before. This particular work is so searing, so personal, so is staggering. You know, I found myself so deeply moved reading this work, this journey through gender and writing and family and money and love and loss. And I think when we talk about memoirs, there is this excavating that has to happen, this peeling back of layers that happens when you are revealing yourself to the world. And what Akwaeke does here is really just tremendous. So I highly recommend Dear Senthuran. And if you have a chance to pick that up. And obviously also our three authors featured today and we hope you will join us soon for another episode of Writing Black. Thanks so much for joining us for this week’s episode of Writing Black. As always, you can find us on theGrio app or wherever you find your podcasts.
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