In the season 3 debut, Cortney sits down with actress Aunjanue Ellis-Taylor about her new film, Origin, written and directed by Ava DuVernay. Cortney and Aunjanue have an honest conversation about the origins of hate and inhumanity on and off the screen, including why she believes Origin is not getting a fair shake in Hollywood despite the film’s crucial global message.
The Oscar-nominated actress shares what it took to bring Isabel Wilkerson’s story to life while illuminating the weighty themes of her award-winning book “Caste: The Origin of our Discontents.” Aunjanue Ellis-Taylor also weighs in on her own experience with pay inequality in Hollywood.
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Announcer: You are now listening to theGrio’s Black Podcast Network, Black Culture Amplified.
Cortney Wills: Hello and welcome to Acting Up, the podcast that dives deep into TV and film that highlights our people, our culture, and our stories. I’m your host, Courtney Wills, Entertainment Director at theGrio, and today I am joined by the phenomenal Aunjanue Ellis-Taylor. She was one of my very first guests. She was actually the third guest on this podcast when it launched back in 2021.
And since then, wow, has her career just continued to grow and continue to deliver not only fantastic quality, but important. work. The latest of which is “Origin”, written, directed, and produced by Ava DuVernay. And when I tell you this film is just one of the most important pieces of art I’ve ever seen, it’s an understatement. So I’m so glad to have her here with me today. Hi Aunjanue.
Aunjanue Ellis-Taylor: Hi, how you doing?
Cortney Wills: I’m doing really well. Gosh, so much has happened since the last time you were on this podcast. I think then we were talking about Lovecraft, and we were talking about the Clark sisters, and we were talking about pay equity in Hollywood.
And here we are a few years later, you’ve racked up some major nominations for other incredible roles like King Richard, like the Clark sisters, and now you are starring in a project that I just can’t imagine anyone else doing the way that you did, and that is “Origin” from Ava DuVernay.
Aunjanue Ellis-Taylor: Yeah, it’s been a, it’s been a journey. I, the last two, I say 2022, I, I was just, I was working constantly. I was working constantly. And then 2023, I did, I did “Origin” the first part of 2023. It’s been crazy. You know, the, the strike kind of like.. threw a, threw a, threw a big bomb and all of that, you know, but but yeah, you know, I, I, I think that, you know, hopefully we’ve done something with “Origin” that will mean something to people that would really mean something to, to somebody.
Cause we worked our tails off on that thing and Ava DuVernay, my God, I, you know, I, hats off, shoes off, everything off, know what I’m saying? To what she told to her hard work and, you know, her brilliance and, you know, and as it’s displayed in this film.
Cortney Wills: I think that “Origin”, I mean, I’ve also been a fan of Ava’s, and of yours, and of Niecy’s, and seen so much from you all, but something about this particular project, it just felt like the biggest strengths, or the most distinct and unique strengths, that I find in each of you were just on full display here at the same time, if that makes sense, like everything just seemed to really click and it was breathtaking and it was breathtaking to see the results of even the story that Eva wrote based on this book “Caste,” which I read when it came out and it was so dense that I couldn’t imagine what this film would be like other than a documentary.
And what we got was something extremely unique that I think for me, you know, cuts to the core of this origin, the origin of our hatred, the origin of the thing that allows people and peoples to devalue human life. And at the same time, it was also this, like, this revelation about the origin of what it means to be human, which is to me, love and loss. That grief and that loss that we watched Ms. Wilkerson go through was, was, was almost as eye opening and important and extravagant to me as and mind blowing to me as figuring out what the origin of that hatred is. It’s like the origin of what links us all was there too.
Aunjanue Ellis-Taylor: Yeah, that’s great. That’s great.
Cortney Wills: I want to get into, number one, what it took for you to jump into the shoes of someone who I mean, this is you’ve played in real life people before, but this woman is, you know, here now, this book did not come out long ago. She’s living and working. So I wonder what the approach was there. And I also just want to kind of comment like to me, this was a role where you were very, I don’t know if it was intentional, but I thought your character was like very sexy. Like the way you were even moving was, I don’t know if it’s because I was feeling the chemistry between you and your onscreen husband, the very, very, very adorable actor that you all might know from “The Bear,” but, it just felt, she felt, you know, smart and, you know, she’s grieving and all that, but those flashbacks, she was kind of, I don’t, like I said, she was like sexy and sensual to me. Did that, was that on purpose? Did you pick something like that up from her as well?
Aunjanue Ellis-Taylor: Well, I think intelligence is sexy. Because you can be, you can be in a gorgeous frame and you open your mouth and you got, dumb falls out. (laughter)
I am no longer interested. I am no longer interested. But yeah, I think that intelligence is very, very sexy. And Ms. Ms. Wilkerson is, you know, she’s a very refined woman. She, you know, she cares about her appearance and, you know, she moves through the world with that kind of, you know I think an awareness about her appearance and a, and a great pride, a great pride in that.
So that, that, you know, that makes sense. How I came to work. Versus how I looked on screen. They’re two very, very different things. You know what I mean?
And then, you know, John Bernthal is the actor who played, you know, my, my on screen, my own on screen partner. They weren’t married. But, you know, he’s, he’s lovely, you know, and he, he elicits that kind of response because he’s so, because he’s so lovely and kind and you know, catering. He’s all those things.
Cortney Wills: That chemistry between the two of you really bounced off of the screen for me. But I think that authenticity was captured with all of the relationships that we see her move through in this film, including that with her cousin who’s played by Niecy Nash. It was so relatable. Like, I know that woman. That woman is in my life. That woman is in my mother’s life. It was, it was something deeper than just it being present, it, those relationships just felt extremely authentic. And I do think that that’s always been one of Ava’s strengths is to humanize anybody in any story that she is taking on.
But the way that you all acted with your faces and with your emotions in this film was, was, like I said, just really breathtaking. You went all around the world for this film. Tell me what was the most challenging location for you?
Aunjanue Ellis-Taylor: Well, yeah, we went all over the world. We went to India. We went to Berlin. We shot down south in Georgia. I would say it wasn’t necessarily challenging, but it was scary. It was a little scary. It was a little scary. We shot in this market in New Delhi and it was where the tuk tuks were, you know, , tuk tuks were moving freely. There are lines in the roads.
You know what I mean? There’s no stoplights in this market. You know what I’m saying? It is “good luck!”
The principle of survival is, “good luck.”
Cortney Wills: Wow.
Aunjanue Ellis-Taylor: And we were filming, we were filming in that we, we actually on one of the sequences that we shot, like my, my tuk tuk hit another one, hit another tuk tuk, you know, that was a badge of honor. I couldn’t wait to tell people like, yes, I survived.
Cortney Wills: The driver probably didn’t even miss a beat. He just kept going.
Aunjanue Ellis-Taylor: No, he just busted the other guy. Have you ever been to Delhi?
Cortney Wills: I have been once. Yes, I’ve been to Mumbai. Crazy, right? Yes.
Aunjanue Ellis-Taylor: They just busted each other and keep going. Unreal. Each other, keep going. So yes, yes, New Delhi was an experience.
Cortney Wills: You know, it was an experience to see that part of the film as well. I don’t think, at least for me, I don’t know that people are walking around with the knowledge of what the system is in India still. And I was lucky enough to see you and Ava, a week or two ago, at a panel that you did at a screening for “Origin”. And it was at the Museum of Tolerance, and she was talking about the fact that, like, no, the scenes you will see in the movie of these people having to clean human excrement with their bare bodies, bare hands, faces covered, was not real excrement. But you all, I mean, those were real people who actually do that.
Aunjanue Ellis-Taylor: Yes.
Cortney Wills: And you were somewhere where that was happening? I mean, was that happening in front of your face?
Aunjanue Ellis-Taylor: No, I didn’t see that, but yeah, it, it was, I mean, these, these are the men who I, those, those, the people who did that, they actually did that, that is, they actually did that, you know, it’s girl, listen, stunning, stunning, stunning.
What we do to each other, you know, it’s like, so the, the idea of cast, or there’s a higher caste as middle caste, lower caste, and then there’s, then there’s, but what is beneath the lowest caste. And that’s, that’s, that’s who those, that’s who those men, those men were.
Cortney Wills: And, and what this film highlights is what that mentality, or what that outlook, what accepting that kind of you know, valuing and devaluing of people, that’s what it looks like there. What it looked like in, you know, Nazi Germany and what it looks like in 2023. United States, or Jim Crow United States, it’s all coming from the same thing, the same acceptance or the same lie that we’re somehow fed or raised with, you know, that is so ingrained in the ways that our societies are built in the way that we move in them that we often don’t even know that we are participating and I thought the film did a really beautiful job of in a way showing that everyone is just as guilty and just as innocent in perpetuating this.
You know, what I would call a nightmare, it remains the nightmare of our existence, you know, you can look anywhere, you can look in a Sudan now, you can look at Gaza now, you can look, you know, in certain pockets of the United States now and see unimaginable devaluation of human life and a whole bunch of people who feel like they’re good and feel like they’re not part of that, kind of standing by and letting it happen, right?
Aunjanue Ellis-Taylor: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Cortney Wills: What do we do with that?
Aunjanue Ellis-Taylor: Well, you know, that’s why, that’s why I wanted to do this film. That’s why I wanted to be in it because I wanted us to do what you’re doing right now, which is ask that question. What do we, what do we do with that? And I think that that, I think Ms. Wilkerson wasn’t the first person to write about caste in America. Allison Davis wrote about it. But in this moment, at least in 2020, was the first that we had heard about it in such a, such a public forum… that we, you know, that it was a New York times bestseller, right? So these ideas are in our popular culture in a way, you know, this was new in that way.
And the, like I said, the consideration of caste being in this country, not a new idea. but not one certainly that’s saturated. And we assume that we know of the caste system in, in India, and we associate caste with India, right? But we have never associated the caste system with Nazi Germany. And I’ve certainly never, never, never saw … what we are experiencing here in America as a caste system that is actively, and this is, this is the kicker, that is actively being sustained.
Cortney Wills: Yes.
Aunjanue Ellis-Taylor: Whether they know that what they’re doing is casteism or not, that is what’s happening. And I think this moment right now, especially with the elections, you know, what we need to confront is, because I think the power of knowing what caste is, we benefit the people who are in the lower caste, we benefit from that knowledge more than anybody. Then when we see that we are linked with all of these other cultures, countries, when we, when we’re linked and we have an awareness of what is happening, we’re better armed to confront it. Because we don’t, we don’t know what’s at play, then we’re, we’re all fighting in our corners.
Now, we know we’re linked here and it serves us, it serves us to hold hands in that linkage. I think of this in an understanding that, you know, there are folks in this country who want to elect someone, not because they are a good leader, not because they find, probably some of them find him, you know, repulsive, repulsive. He goes against everything. They, they say that they believe about this country being… having integrity, having, you know, moral superiority to the rest of the world, and they, they are going, they’re trying to put this very person back in office and they’re not doing it because they think anything other than he can maintain their power. He can maintain their power as white folks. That’s it. It really changes your way of thinking about being a citizen of this country because you think, okay, my reasons for going to the ballot box are not the same as theirs. And yet , we share the same yoke though. And some may write about that.
Cortney Wills: There was one question that, that, I mean, there are so many moments in this movie that will stay with you long after you see it, I think, that will replay in your mind, and you know, there was something very interesting about watching it at the Museum of Tolerance. That crowd was primarily very mature, very elderly Jewish people who are living in Los Angeles at a very precarious time in the world.
There were bomb searches of our cars when we parked. There was a fire alarm that went off. I don’t know if you were there Aunjanue, but a fire alarm went off right when the screening started and I wasn’t in the theater yet. And I went outside. I was like, I’m gonna wait until we see what this is. And then going in and seeing this movie, seeing the representation of Nazi Germany, for example, it was just so crazy. Like it was, I was looking at the past and these people fearing for their lives. for being Jewish in the past. And I was sitting in a room where 10 minutes ago, I was actually sharing in that fear of being in a Jewish space and watching this movie, I knew that this movie could be a target for people who don’t want us to wake up, who don’t want the status quo to be disrupted, who don’t want us to recognize that through line that you were just speaking so eloquently about.
And in that way, I was just staunchly reminded how art is activism. And how art can be a weapon. And it’s a weapon clearly because people are all so scared of it. And people feel the need to defend themselves against it and prevent messages like the one this film expresses from getting out there and changing people’s minds and changing people’s actions.
And at the same time, when I see films like this, and I think, oh my gosh, I wish I could show it to those five white people I was debating about the summer of George Floyd, and they were saying, just show me, just show me real, you know? It’s It’s “13th,” it’s, “When They See Us,” now , “Origin” is right there on that list of, you know, five films I want to show white folks who think that we are exaggerating.
And then I think the people who need to see this, the people who I think’s minds might actually be moved. I don’t think they’re the ones going out to the theaters and buying tickets. for “Origin”. And even I discussed that when I saw you at the Governor’s Awards. And then I see you on Instagram, somebody caught you in disguise hanging out, passing out postcards outside of an AMC theater, encouraging folks to see this movie. So you have clearly taken an interest in, in exactly that, in getting people to watch this one. What do you think it will take?
Aunjanue Ellis-Taylor: Well, I wasn’t in disguise. I just, I just still wear a mask because, you know, we live in the world that we live in. You know what I mean? I’m just trying not to catch anything. But yeah, I, you know, we, we’ve been ignored. You know, this film has been ignored. There are probably some explanations for why that is, you know, we have heard things like, ‘yeah, you know, people think it’s homework.’
People think it’s you know, ‘medicine,’ you know, it’s a ‘history lesson,’ you know, it’s all those things it’s, but I think, you know, how is it that someone could hear this premise? It’s a film about a scientist who makes bombs. It’s a period film about a scientist who makes bombs. And no one says, ‘Oh, I don’t want to go see that. It’s a history lesson.’ A true story about a scientist, who makes bombs. No one says, ‘Oh, that’s a history lesson, it’s a medicine, I don’t, I don’t want to see that.’ Nobody has that reaction. It’s embraced. This is not to say anything disparaging about, about that film or it’s director, I’m not saying that. I’m saying that if you think that “Origin” is medicine or you think “Origin” is, is homework, why don’t you have that same reaction to “Oppenheimer?”
There’s a disconnect. There’s a disconnect there. We’ve been overlooked, but so I, I can’t do anything about that, but just go out in the streets and pass out flyers to people and say, come see our film, come see our movie. You know, we, the thing is, is we don’t have a huge budget, PR budget.
We don’t have that. So we’re having to do things real grassroots, real grassroots. And that’s what we’re doing. And my prayer is, when it’s in theaters that it takes on a life of its own, you know, the reality is we probably are not going to get these awards or whatever, but the film in the being someone called it the people’s movie the other day, when it becomes, when it becomes the possession of the people, then it will, it can do the work that we wanted it to do from the start, you know?
Cortney Wills: Yes. Yes. And despite those not huge marketing budgets and not huge production budgets, this film, I will say it again, is one of the most important ones I have ever seen. And it is also, aside from that, it’s just beautiful. It’s also just a beautiful, dramatic film. It’s a true story about this woman who experienced some tremendous And that in itself was another thing to really behold.
So I think there are many, many reasons to go and see this film. Aunjanue is going to be where I am, Sundance Film Festival. She’s staying busy as usual. I never only have one thing to talk to you about today. We’re talking about “Origin”, but I know I’m going to see something from you. I think you executive produced a film called “Grace”. Am I right about that?
Aunjanue Ellis-Taylor: Yeah, it’s a, it’s a short film called “Grace”. It stars one of my babies from King Richard. Her name is Mikayla Bartholomew. I’m there, but I’m there really because of this film I’m in called “Exhibiting Forgiveness.”
Cortney Wills: Yes, that’s on my list too. Cannot wait to see that. So excited to see that. And some people, I don’t know if you also put it together that she’s also, you’ve got a cameo in “The Color Purple,” which is another huge film. And we, we only see you for a minute, but that film has sparked conversation from the likes of Taraji about something you and I talked about on that episode so many years ago, where you were telling me that, you know, despite your illustrious career, you couldn’t do things for your family that you think someone in your position, we would think someone in your position, could, they weren’t paying Black women in Hollywood then, and even after all of these awards, all of, all after these, you know, what feel like flashy Black women led films like “The Color Purple,” we’re still hearing those same remarks. And I just wonder for you, the last time we spoke, we were talking about whether or not you saw awards really move the needle when it came to career, and that’s where we got into the conversation about pay equity.
Since then, you’ve been nominated for an Oscar, BAFTA, so many other awards and we are, we are being treated to what is, I don’t care whether we see this at the Oscars next year or not, it is absolutely one of the best performances you will see from an actor on screen this year in “Origin.”
So now I’m asking you. You know, three years later and nominations later, do you still feel like we’re in that same boat?
Aunjanue Ellis-Taylor: I can only speak for myself. I can only speak for myself. You know, it was interesting listening to, you know, Taraji, and I, I said, you know, Black women actors like Black people are not monolith,. It’s not a, we’re not a monolith. You know, we, some of us want, some of us require certain things that, you know, Taraji Henson is a superstar. You know, she’s a, she’s a, she’s Black royalty at this point, you know? So what she needs, I don’t necessarily need. Taraji wants to be picked up and taken to work every morning.
I don’t, I don’t need that. You know, I don’t need that. I don’t want that. I like being by myself. I like having rental cars, you know, because I can go to work when I want to. I don’t have to take care of anyone else’s feelings. I can listen to my music as loud as I want to. I can call my sister. I call my, you know, I can just, I can just be, you know, ugly before I get to work.
You know what I’m saying? I can be ugly. After getting to work. And getting home from work are sacred times for me. So I like the aloneness of that. I, so I don’t need someone picking me up. She, she needs that. She wants, she feels that she needs that for her safety. So I, I feel, I feel that we, we want different, we need different things and we need to allow that to be the case that people require, people require different things.
In terms of pay, you know, I, you know, the experience that I had with King Richard, I’ve talked about this, you know, a few times I, I, after it was over, I told Will that I didn’t get paid enough and he went in his pocket and doubled my pay. And it still wasn’t enough, you know, it still, it still wasn’t enough compared to what my white contemporaries get paid, it’s it’s not the same. I think about the fact that someone like Cameron Diaz and a couple of actors who are probably my age and maybe a little younger, that they can retire, that they can say, ‘no, I don’t want to act anymore,’ that they can retire. I, I can’t retire. I have to, I gotta, I still have to work. I still, you know, I still have people depending on me. There’s still things that I need to do. So I have to continue. I have to continue to work and that shows the gross, you know, inequity and pay in our, in our industry. Yeah.
Cortney Wills: Yes, I could talk to you forever, but I know I have to let you go. I’m so excited that I get to bump into you this week at Sundance, but thank you for your time today on this interview, but also thank you for the work that you poured into “Origin” that all of you did. It is so evident what a team effort this was and what a labor of love that it was. And that’s really what it felt like to be on the receiving end. I felt like I was really getting a gift from you all. And I hope that people remain open and, and, and open to receiving that gift because there is a lot of stuff in there that is very useful and tangible.
Even in our day to day lives right now, there is something to take away. And I left feeling a little bit less like there’s nothing I can do. And I think that hope is something that we as a community have to figure a way to hold on to. And I think this film is really a step in the right direction.
Aunjanue Ellis-Taylor: Thank you. Thank you. Thank you so much. I appreciate you know, that how how that your response is. is what it is, but also you can say what it is. You can express what it is. And I just, I, it makes me feel like, okay, my reasons for doing it, were not, were not in vain. That’s what I wanted. That’s what you, what you said.
Cortney Wills: Awesome. I love when that happens. But we’re picking up what you all are putting down. I hope everyone else picks it up too. Thanks again for joining me today on acting up and everyone run, do not walk, to buy your tickets for “Origin” in theaters this weekend. Share it with your friends. Share it with your colleagues. Share it with your students.
It is absolutely urgent viewing. And don’t say I didn’t tell you.
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Acting Up is all about Black Hollywood, who’s making noise, who’s making a difference, and how they’re moving the needle regarding representation.
Cortney Wills has forged deep connections with creatives, actors, directors, producers, writers, executives, and the real decision-makers who shape how our community is represented onscreen, giving Acting Up access to the inner workings of Hollywood.
