Touré first met Kanye back when he was first becoming a superstar and Jesus Walks was on the radio. He had just bought an expensive neck chain with lots of colored diamonds and a pendant that was an image of Jesus Christ… with blonde hair and blue eyes. When Touré asks, ‘Why is it a white Jesus?’ Kanye goes into a tailspin that is only made worse hours later when they run into Jay-Z and get Jay’s opinion.
Credits:
Jesus Walks
Writer: Ari Miri Ben, Curtis Leon Lundy, Che Smith, Kanye Omari West
Label: G.O.O.D. Music & Def Jam Recordings
Publisher: Please Gimme My Publishing, EMI Blackwood Music, Universal Music-MGB Songs, Universal Music Group, Solomon Ink, Mirimode Music, Curwan Music, BMI, UMPG / We Publish Music, AMRA, ASCAP, AdRev Publishing, Sony Music Entertainment, LatinAutor, CMRRA, UBEM & AMRA BR
Full transcript below.
ANNOUNCER [00:00:00] You are now listening to theGrio’s Black Podcast Network Black Culture Amplified.
TOURE [00:00:05] I’m Toure. Star Stories is brought to you by theGrioBlack Podcast Network. Home of the Blackest Questions with Dr. Chrissy Greer and Dear Culture with Panama Jackson. This episode of Star Stories is about Kanye.
TOURE [00:00:21] So the year 2004, I’m a writer at Rolling Stone magazine, which means every few days the phone rings announcing a new mission. Sometimes they’d say, “Go to Trump Tower and interview Jay-Z.” Sometimes they’d say, “Get on a plane and go to Cannes and interview Beyoncé or fly to L.A. and hang out with DMX.” This is about the day someone said, “Go to New Jersey and spend the day with that hot new rapper from Chicago.” This is about the day I met Kanye West. His debut album, The College Dropout, was out, and everyone in hip-hop was talking about him. At that point, his fourth single, Jesus Walks, was all over the radio. He was big but nowhere near as huge as he would become. This is the old Kanye chop up the soul Kanye when he was still somewhat humble.
TOURE [00:01:16] Don’t get me wrong. He had a big ego. But it was still building. Which is part of what this story is all about. He was then living in a luxury skyscraper in Hoboken in an apartment on the top floor. When I got there around noon, he was in his bedroom getting dressed for the next hour. He continued, struggling with what to wear, wondering which Polo shirts? So for an hour, I wandered around his apartment, just looking around, being nosey like a reporter should. The place was barely furnished, as if he hadn’t lived there long. But there was an expensive buffalo leather couch with kangaroo fur pillows. I know this because he told me after he finished getting dressed, but then I found the detail that would never leave me. On the wall in the main living room, there was a giant, larger-than-life poster of Kanye. He was onstage in performance, shouting into the mic like, “roar” on the wall in his own house. I was like, Why does Kanye have a poster of Kanye on the wall in his house? This struck me as a bit strange. I’ve been in lots of rappers’ houses. I’ve been in Snoop’s house. We’ll tell you about that another time. I’ve been in Biggie’s apartment. I’ve been to Lauryn Hill’s big place. I’ve been to Offset’s mansion. They may have platinum plaques on the walls commemorating their albums, blowing up, but I’ve never seen someone put a poster of themselves on the wall. I was like; It’s kind of crazy. So when Kanye finally emerged in a polo shirt, we said Hi and all of that. And then I asked him.
TOURE [00:03:05] So why do you have a poster of you on the wall in your house? And he said something amazing. It’s super Kanye, but it’s amazing. He said I have to cheer for me before anyone else can cheer for me. And I thought that was the coolest thing ever. The guy was manually cranking up his self-confidence and his ego and being his own biggest fan at a time when he didn’t have that many fans. He was saying; I need to be a fan of myself first, which is amazing advice because to achieve something great, sometimes you have to believe in yourself before you have any good reason to believe in yourself. You’ve got to believe in your greatness just because you know what’s possible in you, even when your resume doesn’t yet say anything, because that belief in you will help carry you to those big life victories. Now. The self-belief that Kanye was cultivating. Is definitely the first step on the road to Kanye becoming the megalomaniacal Kanye Kardashian who’s polarizing and captivating and all of that. But it was thrilling to watch a young artist be so open and so self-aware about the need to pump his ego up to rap star levels because of all the jobs in the world. Being a rap star requires a massive ego.
TOURE [00:04:33] You want an emcee whose ego is so big it’s infectious. It rubs off on you, and you walk away feeling bigger and stronger and better able to conquer life. Years ago, I worked with KRS One on his autobiography. We’ll talk about that more another time. And he once told me rap songs are like confidence sandwiches. You put them in your mouth, i.e., you repeat the words the emcee is using and the tones and the flows with which the emcee is saying those words, and the confidence the emcee feels rushes into your body. Kanye was building himself up into that sort of person, and I love that. But I mean, in a way, he already had it. I later talked to his mom for this story, and she said when Kanye was in kindergarten, his teacher said Kanye certainly doesn’t have any problem with self-esteem. But he was still building his rap star ego. So it was fragile. I wasn’t trying to get under his skin. But I think I did.
TOURE [00:05:39] And that might be the cause of a long-running rift between us. See, that Kanye interview slash hangout is the first and last time I’ve interviewed Kanye. And this next part of the story might be why It’s the last time I interview him. Let me tell you what happened. See, when Kanye came out with his polo shirt, he also had a brand new Jesus piece neck chain that he’d gotten the day before from Jacob, the Jeweler, who is then the number one custom jewelry maker in all of hip hop. Everyone who was anyone had a piece by Jacob. Kanye’s Jesus piece was glittering and shimmering like the brightest star in the night sky. It was blinding. The actual face was about the size of a grown man’s palm, and it had a cluster of clear diamonds depicting the crown of thorns and a river of yellow and light brown diamonds making of Jesus’s blond hair and aquamarine for his blue eyes and little rubies for the tears of blood coming down his face. It was amazing. It was a $25,000 piece. I know this because he told me. Now, this moment probably would have slid by many other people. Indeed, it would have slipped by me at some other point in my life. But that year, I had made a vow to myself to never lie. I just wanted to be honest 100% of the time and never let anyone make me afraid, to tell the truth. I mean, I was grown. I wasn’t scared of anyone. So why would I lie to anyone? Why would I let anyone scare me out of the courage, to tell the truth? Who are you that I have to lie to you? So I was like, okay. Kanye asked me a question about his Jesus piece. I got to tell the truth.
TOURE [00:07:32] Now, I may not be a big Christian, but I love reading about the historical Jesus, and I believed there was a real man named Jesus who walked the earth and spread some of his teachings that are now attached to his name and was crucified for espousing a radical philosophy. I also believe that that man was Black in that he had African features, brown kinky hair, brown skin, a thick nose. Maybe he looked like me. The Bible suggests as much. It’s Europeans in later centuries who re-drew Jesus as a blond-haired, blue-eyed man. And this matters. This is one of the great intellectual thefts in the history of modern society. Can you imagine how different the world would be if generations of Europeans had been taught that the greatest man who ever lived, the man who is the Son of God, was actually a Black man? Perhaps the transatlantic slave trade doesn’t happen because Europeans are trained to see the humanity in Black people because the best person ever is Black, or something like that. So it’s important to me to not perpetuate the lie that Jesus is blond and blue-eyed, which feeds into Eurocentric beauty standards and Eurocentrism in general. And plus, Kanye suggests in his song Jesus Walks that he himself thinks Jesus is Black when he says, “I ain’t here to argue about his facial features.” So my head is spinning now because all of this is swirling through my mind after Kanye is like, Do you like my Jesus piece?
ANNOUNCER [00:09:07] Thank you for listening to Star Stories with Toure. If you like the show, you’ll love the animated version of the series. Watch the adult cartoon series Star Stories with Toure at theGrio.com or theGrio Black Podcast Network’s YouTube channel. You’ll find the video links in the description section of this episode.
TOURE [00:09:23] So my head is spinning now because all of this is swirling through my mind after Kanye is like, “Do you like my Jesus piece?” And I don’t want to offend him because we just met a few seconds ago. But inside, I’m like, “Nah, not really.” You should have made him look Black. Why are you participating in the madness that Jesus ain’t Black? But I can’t offend him. But I can’t lie. I made a promise to myself. So in a millisecond, I came up with this compromise. I put it on him. I said it doesn’t bother you to sport a blond-haired, blue-eyed Jesus? I didn’t speak on my feelings. I spoke about his, hah! So he says the only thing that bothers me is how other people are going to react to it. What? What does that even mean? I said, But don’t you believe that Jesus was black? He said, Yes, I believe. Jesus was Black. When I saw the chain, I said, I don’t particularly want this as far as what I represent, even though I love it. But I do think it’s a beautiful piece of artwork. I did not say our standards of beauty are socially constructed, and part of why you think that’s beautiful and not strange is because what you’re used to seeing. So even though you believe Jesus is Black, you’re choosing to wear an image of a white and Eurocentric Jesus every day. I did not say that I wanted to. I just said. Okay. I let it drop, and so did he. It’s sort of.
TOURE [00:11:00] My comment and my lack of immediate and total admiration for something that he had done that took hold in his mind and would not let it go. About 30 minutes later, we were in a chauffeured car driving toward Manhattan. When out of the blue, he said, “Do you think everyone’s going to say that about my piece?” I said I didn’t no. We dropped it again. Twenty minutes later, out of the blue again. He calls his assistant and says, “Cancel my next three meetings and tell Jacob The Jeweler we’re coming by right now,” and then he told the driver, “Take us over to Jacob’s.” Thirty minutes later, we’re in Jacob the Jeweler’s showroom at 47th Street and Sixth Avenue in Manhattan. On the wall, there’s hundreds of polaroids of Jacob with every rapper in hip hop. The guy was an institution and a classic luxury goods salesman, ready to bend over backwards to please any client. So when Kanye said, “I want to know if you could pop out these blue eyes?” Jacob said, “Sure, absolutely. Whatever you want.” He yelled to his assistant, “Go in the safe and bring me all the colored stones.” Kanye said, “I actually love the way it looks with blue eyes, but I’ll get too much flack for that. I can’t explain that because I have socially conscious lyrics.” But he tried all the colors Jacob had and concluded that no other color made sense. He promised to come back and make an African-looking one. When we got back in the car, he said, “I got to get my explanation together,” he thought for a moment, and then he said, “I got it. I’ll say, It’s ‘Grandma Jesus'”.
TOURE [00:12:42] I understood. But I didn’t. Fast forward about 10 hours later, It’s about midnight, and Kanye is in his Maybach in the parking lot of little Kean College in New Jersey, waiting to go on stage to perform. He told me that he hoped Jay-Z would come to this show. He said Jay was like a father figure to him. He used that phrase and then he said, Jay is like his Jewish father. I was not entirely sure what that meant. And then he noticed Jay’s Maybach about 40 yards away. A jolt went through him. He jumped out of his Maybach and all but ran over to Jay’s. He had to show him his new Jesus piece. Of course, I had to follow him, but I wasn’t going to just watch. Journalists don’t have to be just flies on the wall. You can do little things to help you get at the truth. I had already seen how torn and insecure Kanye was about someone not giving him instant and total love for just one of his choices. And without that, I wouldn’t have seen who he really is. The ego was big. But it was fragile. And if I hadn’t intervened in the next scene, I wouldn’t have, well, you’ll see. So Kanye runs to Jay’s Maybach and hops in the front passenger seat, and leans into the back, showing off his chain. Now, at that point, I had interviewed Jay several times, so we knew each other. So I nudged myself into the back window right next to Jay in the back seat, leaning in through the open window like the worst little brother in the world, tagging along, like, Hey, guys, what are you doing?
TOURE [00:14:24] Jay sits in the back, rocking this big Rocawear leather jacket. Beside it was this sexy woman in a short skirt and tall Pucci boots. So Kanye hands his chain to Jay for inspection. He really wants Jay’s approval. Jay nods, like, okay. That’s all right. He seemed impressed as he surveyed the glittering piece. Then I said one little thing. Just one thing. I said, “That’s a white Jesus.” I’d probably put a little stink on white. You know how we do. But just a little. Jay immediately changed his tune. His face dropped. He wasn’t impressed no more. Kanye tried to save the moment. That’s Grandma Jesus. Jay said, “Nah, you got to darken that face-up, man.” The woman jumped in. “You got to get rid of them blue eyes.” She said, “he’s too blond hair, blue eyes for me.” Kanye said, “We tried to get rid of the blue eyes.” Now he’s backpedaling. “The blue eyes look best,” he said. Jay said, “Yeah, that’s what they want you to think.” Then he blurted out his signature laugh, ending the moment. And then he shooed Kanye away. “Hurry up and get on stage.” We want to get to a party. Ten minutes later, Kanye was in the midst of a performance he probably doesn’t remember, but I bet he remembers the moment with me and Jay and his chain because he got embarrassed in front of his father figure. His growing ego had gotten deflated by a much bigger ego, and the fragility of his own ego was laid bare. His feelings got hurt, and it was my fault. And for that, I have been punished. That interview took place over 15 years ago, and since then, I’ve interviewed almost everyone in hip-hop. But I haven’t had another interview with Kanye.
TOURE [00:16:25] Star Stories is brought to you by theGrio Black Podcast Network, home of TheGrio Daily with Michael Harriot and Writing Black with Maiysha Kai. If you like this episode of Star Stories, check out the one on KRS One. Remember to rate and review. It does matter. I’m Toure.
Panama Jackson [00:16:49] What’s going on everybody? Panama Jackson here, and I’m the host of the Dear Culture podcast on theGrio’s Black Podcast Network. And I’m telling you to check us out every Thursday on theGrio’s app to make sure you get that new, amazing, original Black content, that awesome creativity. Check us out. Dear Culture. Panama Jackson, out.
