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[00:00:00] You are now listening to theGrio’s Black Podcast Network. Black Culture Amplified.
Maiysha Kai [00:00:07] Hello. Welcome to another episode of Writing Black. I am your host, Maiysha Kai, lifestyle editor here at theGrio. And today we have a legendary guest. I don’t really know how else to describe it. You know, you are likely, if you are an NBA’s, you know, follower or fan like myself, you have likely gotten accustomed to seeing him on the court. He is widely regarded as, I don’t know, the greatest point guard of all time. That’s right. We have Chris Paul with us today to talk about his new book called “Sixty-One: Life Lessons from Papa On and Off the Court. Chris Paul, we are so excited to have you with us today on Writing Black. This is like a rare treat. Welcome. How are you?
Chris Paul [00:00:50] I’m well, Maiysha, thank you so much for having me, too.
Maiysha Kai [00:00:53] I mean, I’m tickled. Listen, I you know, I’m not a basketball. I’m not a baller myself. But I grew up in a family where, you know, I spent many years, you know, weekends on bleachers watching my dad run up and down the court on weekend leagues. And now that torch has been passed to my niece and nephew. But, you know, this is a book that really resonated with me. You know, my dad is now a papa himself. And, you know, there’s so much to love here. But this is a book that’s very much rooted in your relationship with your grandfather and who, by all accounts, sounds like an amazing man. Tell me a little bit about him and how he inspired this telling of this memoir for you.
Chris Paul [00:01:36] Thanks for having me on Writing Black, first and foremost, because what I want to do is, first and foremost, is let all those writers know that I have an appreciation for them and what they do right. And especially something for this like me that was so personal. It was an experience that I’ll never forget. And so talking about my grandfather, he was just he was one of a kind. There’s no relationship like it. I lost my grandmother, his wife, when I was seven years old to lung cancer. And I just never wanted my granddad to feel lonely. And, for those that haven’t been fortunate enough to have that relationship sort of with a grandparent, it’s totally different from the relationship with your parents.
Maiysha Kai [00:02:22] Yeah.
Chris Paul [00:02:23] At least that was my situation.
Maiysha Kai [00:02:24] Yeah.
Chris Paul [00:02:25] My parents, I didn’t think they like me a lot of times, you know. Everything was no. Everything was no. As so my grandfather is where I went to, you know, sort of, you know, feel that that different type of love at times.
Maiysha Kai [00:02:41] You know, and that love comes through in this book. And, you know, as somebody who had that type of relationship with a grandparent. Like, I teared up, actually, as you were just talking now, and I did while reading Sixty- One, which has such a poignant title even, you know, I mean, fans are used to you being number three, but 61 is very significant. This is the age at which your grandfather suddenly died. And it also signifies the tribute that you paid to him in the days after his death when you were still in high school.
Sixty-One Excerpt [00:03:18] I was six points away from my state record of 67 with 90 seconds to go. That number was in reach. And what made my name passed the greatest to ever do it and would be in the State’s record books for who knows how long. This was all going through my mind as I walked to the free throw line. I closed my eyes and I took a breath to center myself. The ref bounced me the ball. So many of my family members and friends, especially people who were connected to Papa, filled the stands. Emotions flooded my body. All my thoughts were about Papa. The lessons he taught me. The time I spent at the gas station. When he found out I was going to Wake Forest. The way he passed me the hat. When I learned about what happened to him. The trauma, the pain, the confusion, my family, and how I would never see him again. I took a deep breath, the deepest breath I’d ever taken. I took one dribble. Papa was my best friend, is my best friend. And forever will be. Without getting into my free throw motion. I picked up the ball and threw it directly out of bounds. I walked off the court. I saw my dad and immediately collapsed in his arms, crying. Crying from exhaustion. Crying from relief. Crying for Papa. 61. RIP Papa Chili. Love you for life.
Maiysha Kai [00:04:49] I mean, it’s such a tremendous story. And the way that you’ve carried him through. Through your life, through your career, and really, I think, paid tribute to your legacy. It’s such a love story, I think. And it’s different than any kind of love story I’ve read before. So I commend you on that. I also think, you know, when we talk about memoirs, sports memoirs, or just, you know, memoirs from anybody famous, Right. And it’s always fun. And if not fun, it’s always interesting to see a different approach to things. And to watch you kind of tell these two stories in tandem was really striking to me as a writer. And I’m curious to know, I know you wrote this with the help of author Michael Wilbon. How is the process for you? You know, obviously there’s a lot of I use this word a lot on the on the podcast excavation taking place here, a lot of revisiting trauma, a lot of recollection. How was that process?
Chris Paul [00:05:53] Yes. So to tell you what my process was like. So I started during the pandemic. Right. And I know how to do a lot of things, but there’s a lot of things that I don’t know how to do. And so I reach out to Mike. Just I wanted to sort of get a framework, a blueprint. He was so great in helping. And so we started out with Zooms during the pandemic, where I would just talk to her and me and my brother would talk to him for an hour or two or just about our childhood and what it looked like. But there’s a whole process. It’s a whole process to actually formulate a story. How are you going to write it? How many chapters is it going to be? This, that and the third. And so I’ll tell you, throughout the entire process, what happened was I got sort of the first is being completely honest. I got like one of the first edits back of the book and I read it and it didn’t sound like me. And it crushed me. And I was like, All right, I’m starting over. I started back over page one and went through everything to make sure, because it’s such a personal story, that it has to sound like me, because there’s so many people that I’m discussing and talking about or whatnot, because this is sort of a time capsule book for me about one particular time in my life. But I appreciated the whole journey of it. And like you said. I discovered things that I had no clue about in this process.
Maiysha Kai [00:07:26] Hmm. When you say you discovered things you had no clue about, do you mean in terms of the process of how a book comes together or things about, I guess, your own family and your and yourself and your family history or some mix of both?
Chris Paul [00:07:39] No. A little bit of both. But I was saying what about my family and about myself.
Maiysha Kai [00:07:44] Okay.
Chris Paul [00:07:45] So. It’s crazy. It’s been 20 years since my grandfather was murdered and I lost him. But when you go through situations, a lot of times you only think about it from your perspective. So I can recollect everything that happened with me, to from when I found out, to where I went, all this stuff. But in this process of a book, I remember getting on the phone, my mom, my brother, my dad and everything, and then a conversation we had never had. I was like, Mom, where was you when you found out? Dad where was you? You know, C.J., I know you called me and told me that she was coming home, but I didn’t realize one of his teammates brought him home, you know. And so I also did the audiobook, so I did the audio version, which was even was much harder.
Maiysha Kai [00:08:33] I mentioned. I can only imagine. Yeah. Yeah. Because if I was sitting there tearing up during this book, I can only imagine what it was like writing it. And, you know, one of the things that I think is so striking about this and and even what you were just saying there, you know, talking about this being a time capsule and you’re also taking us through you’re revisiting not only this piece of your personal history, but literally physical locations and your and as you noted, you know, when this happened, when this pivotal life event happened to your entire family, you were still a teenager. And now you’re kind of revisiting this, obviously, as a man is as a well-established man, having had this, still in the midst of a tremendous career. And what I love about how you all managed to bring this story kind of full circle is exactly that, because so much of what you’re talking about here in this book is about what it means to be a man, a father, a leader. Talking about the patriarch of your family, like, what were some of the things that you really wanted to communicate about? You know, there’s so many lessons here. So many. But what he taught you about manhood and about fatherhood?
Chris Paul [00:09:51] Yeah. I think what I wanted to convey in the book is the importance of relationships. The importance of doing the work and the importance of showing your work. People can tell you this, or what kind of advice did they tell you or this? My grandfather wasn’t that big of a talker. He was a doer. So the things that he didn’t necessarily tell me, he showed me, he showed me. So if me and my brother wanted something, if I wanted these shoes that were coming out instead of him just giving it to me, he made me come to the service station and do the work. And so I appreciate that. And the things that I learn, too, is that especially even from my dad like my dad used to always tell me, I’m not your friend. That’s not my job to be your friend. I got to teach you discipline, I got to teach you hard work. But I was hugged a lot as a kid, too. So, yes, they’re hard on you, but they show you that amount of love. And then also too, it teaches you, like the book, it teaches you about loss. Right. So when when you lose someone, you may lose them in the physical, but you don’t necessarily lose them spiritually or emotionally and you deal with it. Like you’re never done dealing with it. I think that’s what I’ve learned over all these years, is that it may hit me just one day for 5 minutes where I just sit there and I’m like, “Dang, I miss Papa.
Maiysha Kai [00:11:16] Yeah.
Chris Paul [00:11:16] You know? And that’s normal.
Maiysha Kai [00:11:19] Yeah. No, I think it’s entirely normal. I think that’s what makes this book really special. We’re going to be right back with more Chris Paul and more Writing Black. And we’re back with Writing Black. And our guest today, NBA superstar Chris Paul, who’s got a new book, Sixty-One. Let’s get back into it. I’m Sure of all the memoirs that fans might have expected you to write, this might not have been what they were expecting. Even those who know that this is a big part of your story. You know, for instance, I have a fan here in my house, my fiancee, he’s a huge fan. He sends his regards, by the way. And one of the things he pointed out, the first thing he said when I said I’m interviewing Chris Paul, he said he’s like, oh, man. He’s like, you know, the thing that always sticks out about Chris Paul is he is driven to his drive for excellence, that he demands excellence of himself, of his teams, etc.. And you really get to kind of see where that comes from in this book. I think that’s so interesting to give your fans or people who are unfamiliar with you, that insight into how you became who you are. But when you were writing it, who did you feel like you were writing this for?
Chris Paul [00:12:34] Oh, man, that’s a good question. Man. To a certain extent, maybe people who are unfamiliar with me or familiar with me so they can sort of know how I’m wired. But, you know, it’s different sections of the book that were almost like for different people. That makes sense. Now, the book is for everybody, but I mean, like at some points when I was writing someone might have been on my mind. You know, I mean, for this paragraph or for that paragraph. That’s crazy, nobody’s asked me a question, but now that I’m thinking about it, it was. It was. Really important when I was talking about the funeral. Right. That I made sure I detailed every sort of bit of emotion I was feeling because some parts of it I was sort of talking to my mom, you know, I mean, because I have no idea how she’s going to feel when she reads this book. But I just want her to know that everything that she was feeling in that moment of losing her mom and losing her dad is that I was paying attention to it and that I was that same hurt for her.
Sixty-One Excerpt [00:13:44] However, there’s one image burned in my brain from the scene at Papa’s funeral. At one point, everybody was just sitting there in the pews. My mom, dad, uncles, aunts, cousins, everyone in the church was sitting down. Mourning. Listening to the choir singing,’ My Soul Has Been Anchored.’ My mom just stood up. Kind of hunched over and shaky. You could tell everything she had was taken out of her. Her soul was crushed. I wanted to hug her to show that I felt her pain as well. That was usually Papa’s job. But not anymore. I was stuck. We all were stuck as she stood alone with the weight of the world on her shoulders, in pain, but leaning on her faith enough to push forward. She stretched her arms out, looking up as if she just wanted to hug her mom and dad one last time.
Maiysha Kai [00:14:38] Yeah. You know, and I think that does come across if you if you’ve questioned whether or not that comes across it, it definitely comes across that you are. Not just allowing us to see you, but you have this incredible kind of. As it were. I can’t call them characters per se, I’ll have to in this context. It’s this incredible supporting cast, right? You know, whether it’s, you know, talking about your brother, your older brother, Charles Jr, who is CP2. I know your CP3. Talking about your parents and what they did to enable you to do what you do now and your appreciation for that. Your wife, your children are a huge part of this book. It’s it’s it’s a wonderful moment of levity to see how you are now fostering them. I think that it’s, even your aunt, you know, being able to give us a lens into what that looks like, because I think that, you know, we all those are the moments of empathy that strikes so strongly. And that’s a hard thing, I think, to capture in terms of craft.
Sixty-One Excerpt [00:15:40] Hey, Chris, how you feeling? Aunt Rhonda asked. What time is the game later? We play a part in a seven. We’ll see. I answered. They didn’t know I was struggling with whether or not to play. But once I saw my family, I knew I had to play. I kept trading hugs and fist bumps with aunts and uncles. They gave me the regular. Boy, you’re getting big. Or Robin, what are you feeding these kids? Type of commentary that you get when you find yourself in front of family you haven’t seen in a minute. I’m glad you’re playing, Aunt Rhonda said. He would have wanted you to. Okay, Auntie, I responded. Papa loved seeing you play, Aunt Rhonda said with tears streaming down her face. Why don’t you do something special for your granddad?
Maiysha Kai [00:16:33] I also, you know, please correct me, if I’m mistaken, but I believe I got from the book that while you were writing this, your family was also kind of re-experiencing this whole litigation over your grandfather’s murder all over again.
Newscast [00:16:50] First tonight, arguments are being heard in the murder case of NBA star Chris Paul’s grandfather. Four men, part of the group known as the Winston-Salem Five, are seeking exoneration.
Maiysha Kai [00:17:01] For you as you’re writing this. And I assume you were already in process. Did that change your narrative? Did it make you feel like you were pulled in in a few different directions with this? Like, how did that how did that find its way into the book and how did how did you kind of process that?
Chris Paul [00:17:23] It didn’t necessarily change my narrative. But I’ll tell you, the way life happens is crazy. Because I’m in season a lot of times. I’m playing. I’m traveling. I’m here and there and I’m trying to be as present as possible. But the way I found out that was happening was a text in my family group chat, you know, that, you know, they’re opening up the case again with this Innocence Project. And so now, you know, life is life, but I know that when this hits ESPN, I’m going to be the one getting questions about, you know. And I think in the process of it, the first people that come to my mind is my mom and my aunt. So I didn’t know what that process was going to look like, what was going to happen. But I’m extremely protective of my family. Because I am I’m grown now. I’m 38. You know, I’m not a 17 year old kid that when this trial happened and I was in college, my parents didn’t allow me or my brother to go to any of the trial. They weren’t even telling us what was happening at the trial. Right. I was in college. And so, now, sort of, the roles were reversed. Now, I’m extremely protective of them and their peace and just wanted to try to be there for them.
Maiysha Kai [00:18:47] And you know, what’s so interesting also is obviously this is also juxtaposed against very real racial reckoning, one of many that America has gone through. And and we see wrestling also with your own feelings about the criminalization of Black men, mass incarceration. So many of these like really loaded and unresolved topics, you know, that for the foreseeable future will not be resolved, which is the tragedy of being Black in America, is knowing that. Right? And in the midst of this, having to also watch this play out in your own life. Like how to how was that? How did that feel?
Chris Paul [00:19:38] It’s always really interesting because you’re watching what’s happening with George Floyd. You’re watching all the things that’s going on and how I hate the idea of mass incarceration. And, you know, and I believe that when I say it. And then on the other hand, I’m sitting here with my grandfather murdered by five teenagers. Right? So people are like, how are you saying this? But saying that? And it’s just a odd feeling, right. It’s an odd situation. And I’ve said this a number of times before. I hate the thought of them sitting in jail for the rest of their lives. You know, when people show their remorse or whatnot and, you know, do their time, whatever it may be, then the whole world out there is is hard for me to think about somebody being in jail from 15 to 55.
Maiysha Kai [00:20:32] [00:20:32]Right, because obviously is that is one of the more striking aspects, right. That they were around the same age. They weren’t much younger than you at the time. So to had this happen is is is one it’s it’s look I think it’s reflective of again, a greater American tragedy. And I’m so sorry that it touched your family in that way. You know, to lighten things up just a bit. I am curious to know, you know, you again have had this tremendous career. You’re still. [27.8s] Actively playing. You’re still, you know, doing the thing, making the moves. You’re yes, you’ve moved more more from the protege to the the mentor. But, you know, so many people wait to write their memoirs till after they’re out of the game. Why? Why did you feel like now was the time?
Chris Paul [00:21:19] And I feel like right now was the time because, I mean, it was even higher recalling some things. Right. And now you went to the hoping might not be might be getting shot with certain things and when. I think had I had written it any earlier, then I wouldn’t have the perspective that I have. I think right now I was just in such a place of gratitude and. Reflect the reflecting things about my family and my kids. I think that was a big thing for me, is that had I wrote it when I was younger. As much as I appreciate my grandfather. There’s a whole different, like relationship even going on now, like with my kids and with my parents and with my wife’s parents or me. And I actually came to know my wife. He’s. He left a few days ago to go to North Carolina. Okay. He went to North Carolina. He’s actually at my parents house without my daughter, like myself. And he’s gone to Carolina basketball camp on Saturday. So to see his relationship with my dad. You know, I can’t help but think about me and my grandfather or her.
Maiysha Kai [00:22:38] I mean, it’s a wonderful first full circle moment. And, you know, even that aspect of it, I love I love that. To me, that feels like a very entrenched Black tradition that sending the children to the grandparents said, yeah.
Chris Paul [00:22:52] You know, and it is. My kids had a really had that and did it a few because we’re in L.A. and my parents in North Carolina, my parents are always here. Like our life is so different from. My childhood, you know, because I used to have to Carolina with my great grandmother who had 32 blankets on her bed. You know what I mean? And she probably.
Maiysha Kai [00:23:15] Had half of them. Yep.
Chris Paul [00:23:17] And, you know, the roads weren’t paying the rock rose. So I was just different.
Maiysha Kai [00:23:23] Yeah. I mean, you know, and again, what you’ve managed to achieve, I mean, you know, I, I got the sense also that so much of this is. I mean, I found myself sometimes saying out loud as I was reading this book. I’m like, He’s there. He can see you if, you know, you can see what you’ve done. Because I felt that there was also this sense of, man, I wish he was there to see that. I mean, he would have been what, you know. Had he lived. Possibly made it to 81 or 82 to to see all that you’ve achieved. And who knows if you ever would have given up the service station. He sounds like he was. He was that dude.
Chris Paul [00:24:01] But it hits you crazy. It’s crazy. You said that because I never even thought about what his age would be now, which you’re exactly right. And what I really mean was my dad. My dad will be 63 in October.
Maiysha Kai [00:24:14] Okay?
Chris Paul [00:24:15] Right? Yeah. And his first birthday was pretty emotional for me for sure, because that’s when it hits you and that’s, you know, like. And like, this was the age of papa, you know. And my dad, it it’ll be in the backyard shooting basketball, playing with my son. And that’s that that part of gratitude that you feel. Because once again, it’s my mom that I think about. She lost her. She lost her mom. You know, like I say, when I was seven and then ten later at 17, she lost her dad. And I, I couldn’t imagine being with either one of them. And I’m 38.
Maiysha Kai [00:24:52] Listen, I’m older than that. And I feel the same way. You know, one of the one of my favorite passages in this book and I have to read it aloud for our viewers, because I think I think they need to know why this book is so special. This is this is one of my favorite quotes, actually, kind of random. But you say sometimes I get mad when elders look down on young people as if they never made mistakes and always had everything figured out. More so, though. I get mad when the kids won’t listen to those who have experience who came before them. And we see this like clash of the generations so often, you know, and you what you’re trying to impart here is that, you know, your papa, he didn’t make those distinctions. He just did what he thought was right. And I think it’s such a powerful lesson for us now, especially in this age when everybody is able to hide behind their screens and say what they want to say and, you know, be reckless with each other. What are your hopes for people who read this?
Chris Paul [00:25:54] Oh, I think. For the quote that you just read from the book. I think I’m hoping that people appreciate both sides of it. Byrne Right. Appreciate both sides of it. There’s something to be learned on both sides. Right now it’s crazy because I deal in analogies. That’s just the way that I operate. And I think about how I went to for my son’s birthday. I took him in ten of his friends to six, fly by, terrorize. And what you appreciate a lot of times about killing is that kids are fearless, fearless. And I think about when I was I used to go ride every ride, every ride, but then thought to be an adult. You’re like, Man, I can’t do that. Okay. What there there’s there’s there’s lessons to be learned from kids where it’s just like, you know, live in the moment, enjoy. At the same time, the kids can also learn that wisdom from adults on different things, whatever it may be. It may be, you know, when you’re driving, you know, just be conscious of your surroundings or when you’re going out. Be mindful of what your daughter who’s bad attention. So. Is. It’s like I said, just having an appreciation for both sides of it, because as a kid. Eli Manning. These old people ain’t talking about nine, but I love not more to sit down and gain that wisdom from your elders.
Maiysha Kai [00:27:24] Yeah, I mean, I agree. I think that that mix of impulsiveness and wisdom is the best that we can ask for. The impulsiveness keeps us young. I think the wisdom keeps us safe. Yeah, that’s another thing that struck me, you know, in this book is, is that you talked about how how you’ve really developed an affinity for becoming a storyteller. And that’s really what this podcast is all about. The storytellers in our midst, no matter what, what their broader profession is, and that everybody’s a full time writer. Some of them are, you know, NBA superstars. But when you when you think about the stories that you want to tell from from Sixty-One on what comes to mind, what other stories are you wanting to tell us?
Chris Paul [00:28:13] Yeah, I’ve thought about that. I mean, I have a production company where we do different things and. I think what made this so interesting for me and not easy, but why? I knew that it was important to make it sound like me is that I’m a consumer, right? I sold my first and foremost, right? So I see things on social, I see things, and I know how when things are organic, people can connect with it a lot more. And so with storytelling. Oh, no. I feel like I’m all over the place right when I’m watching shows or when I’m reading something. I just because I like when it’s authentic and, you know, when it sounds like someone and they’re they’re like telling you a story. Because me, I’m. I can read, you know, I can read books and stuff like that. But at times. I can read a few pages and I won’t know what I read. So sometimes I go to the audio book or not. And that’s why in reading the audio book too, I wanted to make sure it sounded like a conversation because I grew up at cookouts. I grew up on the at my granddad service station. And so and reading the book, I want to make sure it sounds like is me and you having a conversation.
Maiysha Kai [00:29:32] And, you know, I asked this question of all of our guys, but what what do you read? What do you read? What do you consume? You know, what are you watching on TV? What do you read? You know, we’re in an era where writers are being undervalued. So I’m anxious to know, what does Chris Paul read?
Chris Paul [00:29:47] Right? It varies, to tell you the truth. Okay. I like a lot of homes. I’m always looking at different things. So I got into history. I. Not until later in life, because I was all about math and science and all that stuff in history. Like, I sort of dreaded it when I was when I was a kid. So like, white fragility and stuff like that, Right? I. The books on. People give you. And I’m always interested in learning more. Right. It shows that our it’s very I’m really big into health, right. Health and wellness. So trying to you know, the longevity aspect of life. Right. Obviously in playing but. Maybe even going plant based. I’d read nothings on Dr. said Me and all these different things. Trying to figure out a body works because it’s a whole another large as well that I love life and I love people around me. And I’m from the South and I feel like there’s a whole education piece there we’re not getting when it comes to health and wellness, you know? Now, when you go to these different family functions and everything is fried and sweet, sweet tea artist stuff. Is is is food that is coming from food. I this is what we grew up with and always had around is so I’m just big into that education aspect and trying to learn as much as I can.
Maiysha Kai [00:31:20] I’m sure the Chris Paul diet plan would sell really, really well.
Chris Paul [00:31:24] But I’ve got you know.
Maiysha Kai [00:31:28] The wellness guide.
Chris Paul [00:31:29] Is not necessarily about like the diet or not. It’s like I know we got to be educated on.
Maiysha Kai [00:31:36] You know what? I stand corrected. And you are correct. Diets don’t work. Lifestyles do. In the meantime, I’m going to look forward to to hearing who you partner with next and what stories you bring to us, because, you know, Sixty-One again, Sixty-One life lessons from Pogba on and off the court is a really moving, moving read and they really resonate with me deeply. I’ve already preordered several copies for several members of my family because I think that they’re going to be moved by it as well. And I hope that our viewers will do the same. And you know, listen, it’s very rare for us to have one, someone who can count, you know, being rookie of the year, you know, All-Star MVP, two time Olympian and now author. Chris, thank you so much for joining us for for gracing us with your presence here at theGrio. We will be, you know, tuning in to see you next season and hopefully people will be reading Sixty-One. It’s a beautiful, beautiful read. And I know that your grandfather would be proud and I’m sure your family will be, too.
Chris Paul [00:32:38] Thank you. And big shout out to theGrio. I.
Maiysha Kai [00:32:48] Well, that was a really special conversation for me, and I hope it was for you as well. And Sixty-One is an incredibly special book. But as we always do, we have come to the part of writing Black where I like to recommend a little reading, and I like to call the segment my favorites. And if you love that conversation, I’m sure you’ll love Sixty-One. But you will also love the education of Kendrick Perkins. That’s right. You know him from ESPN or maybe you know him from his days on the NBA court. But this is another incredible memoir from an NBA star who is full of ideas. And, you know, there’s some parallels to Chris’s story in terms of, you know, being a southern Black man who it to the top of the NBA. But there are also some really interesting analyzes of history and politics and what it means to be a Black man in America. And I think it’s you know, I would be remiss if I did not mention this book in the same breath as Sixty-One. So whether or not you follow the NBA, I think you’ll enjoy both these books and I highly recommend. But I also can’t overlook the importance of Black fatherhood because it shines so clearly through Sixty-One, and it also shines clearly in this book. Above Ground Poems by Clint Smith, who is an award winning poet and also a bestselling author of How the Word Is Passed, which examines how racism has been commemorated across America. This is another volume poem that I promise you. Even if you’re not into poetry, you will love it. It’s so intimate, so gorgeous, and really brings us a personal lens on Black fatherhood. And I don’t think we can ever out Black fathers. And so above ground is another great one. I can’t recommend it more, but I do hope you’ll come back for more next time on Writing Black. Thanks so much for joining us for this week’s episode of Writing Black. As always, you can find us on theGrio app or wherever you find your podcasts.
