Brace yourselves for a raw and unfiltered conversation with the iconic and world-famous wypipologist Michael Harriot, famed for his Black Twitter presence and unfiltered takes. Maiysha and Michael dive deep into his book “Black AF History,” where he doesn’t hold back in addressing vital issues within the Black community, his upbringing, and his love for Black people and Black history.
Full transcript below.
Announcer [00:00:00] You are now listening to theGrio’s Black Podcast Network. Black Culture Amplified.
Panama Jackson [00:00:05] What’s going on, everybody? I’m Panama Jackson, host of the Dear Culture podcast at theGrio Black Podcast Network. And I’m here to tell you that two of our podcast, theGrio Daily with Michael Harriot and Being Black: The ’80s with Touré have been nominated for Signal Awards. I’m so proud of the homies that I need you to help them win. You can vote for them by scanning these QR codes and make sure you like and subscribe to the content so that you never miss an episode of all this wonderful, amazing Black content. Thanks for listening. Make sure you vote. Have a Black one.
Maiysha Kai [00:00:48] Hello and welcome to another episode of Writing Black here on theGrio. I am always your host, Maiysha Kai. And if this is your first time tuning in or if you just haven’t been with us for a while, you can catch up on all episodes of Writing Black on theGrio Black Podcast Network, or wherever you get your podcasts. Today is a special one for me. I always love hosting members of theGrio Fam here on the podcast. And this person, our guest today has actually been a colleague and a friend of mine for quite a while, and so I couldn’t be more excited to promote and dig into his first book, Black AF History: The Un-Whitewash Story of America by Michael “The” Harriot. That’s right. King of the Twitter thread. Well, the app formerly known as Twitter. Political commentator, writer, poet and just all around dope human being. Michael, thank you for coming and joining us on Writing Black. We’re so happy to have you.
Michael Hariot [00:01:50] Thank you for having me. I feel like this is– like I’m at your mama’s house because we talk all the time, but like, we’re recording now and people are watching.
Maiysha Kai [00:02:01] I thought the same thing. I was like, you know, we are colleagues. We’ve been colleagues at more than one outlet at this point. You are part of the reason– you are the reason I am part of theGrio thing. I’m so thank you for that. You are also one of the most brilliant people I know, and I learn something from you all of the time and you can’t say that about everybody. And so I’m so excited. You know, I know this has been a long time coming. This book is– it really is amazing. It’s such an undertaking. I almost don’t even know where to begin because there’s so much and here. But where I guess I would really begin because this is your first is tell me about why this was the project to embark on as your first like, you know, major offering? Because this is a very dense history. Why was this the one to go?
Michael Hariot [00:02:54] So it wasn’t supposed to be the first book, right? So when I pitched– you pitch publishers and when I pitched the book, I pitched a book called Wypipology. Some background, I used to teach a class called Race as an Economic Construct. And I was pitching a book based on kind of what I taught, what I had been covering and writing about for years. And every time I went to, you know, had a meeting with the publisher, they were like, yeah, like, we love it. We love the idea. Hey, what about that history thing you keep doing? And so the one book deal became a two book deal. And after, you know, we signed the two book deal, I think, you know, I had titles in my head and the title for the book about white people that was Wypipology. That was the original title of the book I pitched. And they didn’t understand the subtitle. And, you know, when I explained it, they were like, “nobody’s ever heard of that. I don’t know if people would be interested in that.” And the subtitle was called Toward a More Critical Race Theory. But nobody had ever heard of critical race theory at the time. So it was like, nah let’s– so we flipped the order of the books. We flipped and did you know Wypipology first, I mean, second, and did Black AF History first. So that’s how it was became the the title of my first book. That was How the order flipped. And so here we are.
Maiysha Kai [00:04:35] And here we are. You know, that is a fascinating story. It also, you know, really to me, speaks to something else that I always find remarkable about you. I mean, because even flipping these books, you still managed to. It is an uncanny ability, and it’s probably why you’re such a great writer, you managed to tap into a moment that we’re having. I’m sure when you started writing this book, I mean, we already knew that there was an assault on Black books, Black history, etc., but not in the kind of concerted effort that we’ve been seeing lately, which, you know, as you illustrate here, is unparalleled since other eras, like, you know, where we like that turn the dial back decades and in some cases centuries with this. So as you’re writing this, you know, I’m sitting here, you know, I have a page open here where you’re talking about David Walker, who who wrote Walker’s Appeal to this Colored Citizens of the World. And this quote stood out to me that “the bear name of educating the colored people scares our cruel oppressors almost to death.” And here we are in that moment. Who are you writing this book for? Who is this for? How are you hoping that this gets used?
Michael Hariot [00:05:53] So I think I’m writing it to and for Black people, I think I throughout my writing career I have always kind of been not necessarily a voice for Black people. But have you ever been somewhere and like, you heard a noise or saw something you like, “did anybody see that but me?” or “is anybody hear that buzz but me?” And sometimes you think you’re crazy because you hear it or you see it and no one else does. And like, I’ve been lucky enough to have platforms where I can write and explain that, “aye, no, you’re not crazy.” Everybody sees it. The thing that you’re hearing, everybody’s hearing it, you’re not crazy. And that’s kind of what this book is. And it’s stuff that a lot of Black people know. It’s a lot of stuff that we don’t know, but it is a way of talking and relating our history and not necessarily the history of Black people. Right? Like, one of the things I think is that there are a lot of books about Black history, but this is a book about how Black people see this country. Right. And so, what I’m saying is, hey, you’re not crazy when you think this country, you know, has always been oppressive to Black people. You’re not crazy when you are wondering why this thing is the way it is. Here is why it is the way it is. And you’re not crazy for thinking that. So it’s a book to Black people and it is for Black.
Maiysha Kai [00:07:31] All right. Well, we’ll be back with more Writing Black.
theGrio Daily Podcast [00:07:36] Yo come look at what Michael Harriot just posted. Black Twitter. Come get yo mans. It’s this podcast episode for me. I was today, years old when I found out Michael Harriot had a podcast. Subscribed. I’m world famous wypipologist michael Harriot and this is theGrio Daily. That’s right. The Black Twitter King has a podcast. TheGrio Daily with Michael Harriot every Monday, Wednesday and Friday on theGrio Black Podcast Network and accessible wherever you find your favorite podcasts.
Maiysha Kai [00:08:04] Okay. And we are back with more Writing Black. It Is definitely affirming. It is definitely validating, I think. You know, we know that America for Black people, for a lot of people, but particularly for Black people, it kind of one long gaslighting experience. I do wonder, like, do you I mean, I know personally that everything you do is for Black people, but do you think about, or– I mean, I don’t know if concern the right word, but obviously the people who probably most need to read this book won’t. Like you do you ever– is there any concern about preaching to the choir? Is there any sense of like, how do we get this into the hands of people who really need this information? Or are they just, you know, is that not our problem?
Michael Hariot [00:08:51] Yeah, I don’t think that it is Black people’s problem. I mean, so one of the things that makes me comfortable about doing what I do is knowing that I don’t know how to do– like I don’t know how to talk to white people and get them to believe things they don’t believe or explain things to them that they don’t believe. You know, you know this, but I was raised– I was homeschooled, raised in a Black family, in a Black neighborhood. And so, you know, one of the things I joke about, I jokingly call myself a wypipologist, but it’s not really a joke. It is because, like when I started going to public school, I had to– I realized that I had to be intentional about learning about white people. Right? Like, I never kind of understood the subconscious deference that a lot of people have to whiteness. And so I never learned it. Right. Is not, you know, inherent. And so I know that I is like, I don’t know how to talk to white people to get them to understand things, right. I talk to white people, like I talk to Black people. And so like, if white– I’m not saying I don’t want white people to buy this book, but I am writing and have always written to Black people. And so the people who– like it’s not like I, you know, went out to a place and unearthed new information or at an archeological dig. Right. Like this information is available to people, maybe not in this format. Right. But the people who resist this kind of information, I don’t know if there’s a thing that I can say that and make them change their mind. And if there is like, I’m probably that person they’re gonna listen to. So I’m free of that responsibility or that burden. And so I really can’t be concerned with that. When you’re writing something to Black people.
Maiysha Kai [00:10:53] You know, and I love that answer. I think it’s a fair answer and it’s an accurate answer. I do think it’s probably not our problem. But I also of that mindset, like W Kamau Bell, who gave a blurb for your book and said, “There’s a part of me that’s like wishing I can get a case of this to Ron DeSantis,” a case of these books. We’re going to talk about that and more when we return in just a second with more Michael Harriot and more Writing Black.
Dr. Christina Greer [00:11:18] What’s Up Grio Family? It’s Dr. Christina Greer, politics editor at theGrio and host of The Blackest Questions. I want to tell you about The Signal Awards. Two of my podcast siblings are nominated, Michael Harriet, host of theGrio Daily. You know, I love going on his podcast, talking about all things politics and Touré, host of Being Black: The ’80s. I’m on two episodes with Touré talking about all things hip hop and the 1980s. Please make sure you hit up the QR code or go to the website and vote at the Signal Awards to make sure they are represented and represented well. Thanks.
Maiysha Kai [00:11:56] All right. We are back with my Grio fam, Michael Harriot, who is set to publish his first book, Black AF History. This is so brilliant. It’s been a long time in the making. There’s a ton of research here. And, you know, you are so generous with your knowledge. I mean, you know, you have for years been, you know, whether it’s in an article or a Twitter thread, you know, you’ve been breaking down these things for us. But like I always find myself and this is a writing question like, where do you find the time? Like, is it just like in your head? Is there like a structure that you had in terms of like, I’m going to spend this many hours a day studying? Is this a result of your upbringing? I mean, your breadth of knowledge is so intense, and I know that, you know, books don’t get written or published alone, so feel free to shout out some of those folks if you need to. But something like this that’s so dense and so fact checked and footnotes, etc., etc., etc. Historical writing is such a specific thing because you have to get it right. What is your process there? Like what drives you? How do you structure this? How do you get it done?
Michael Hariot [00:13:10] So the structure is well, I teamed with a historian, Blair Kelley, whose book Black Folk is out now.
Maiysha Kai [00:13:20] Shout out to Blair Kelley.
Michael Hariot [00:13:21] So she basically gave me a curriculum and said, “Hey, this are we’re going to break down history,” right? And we broke it down into what was initially 13 chapter and this chapter is going to cover this period of time and this topic and she for each of those chapters she gave me a curriculum. This is what you should talk about. This is what you should study. And so some of the stuff I knew, some of the stuff I’d never heard of and I would have to research. And I you know, we used primary sources and researched it. And then from there you take it and you translate it into storytelling, which is what kind of this book really is, right? Lke a storytelling exercise and so how does it relate to me? How this to relate to my family? How does it relate to Black people in general? Right. And so interestingly, the time part, right. So when I first started writing, I decided to do this thing because I had read about it called Biphasic Sleep. And like I’m a person who goes down rabbit holes. Like if something kind of just piques my interest, I’ll go down a rabbit hole and I’ll be like 20 subjects away by the end.
Maiysha Kai [00:14:41] Same. Too many tabs open.
Michael Hariot [00:14:44] And so I had read about this thing called Biphasic Sleep, which is– like supposedly, like for most of human history, there were no light bulb. You know, you had candles, but you can’t, you know, light a candle and just use candles, whatever you want. So we would go to sleep when the sun went down and we would sleep for like three, 4 hours, wake up in the middle of the night, which is what they call the witching hour. And that’s when we would read the Bible. That’s when children were made. That’s when some people would work on the farm and milk cows because like the cows would be sleep, so they were easy to handle. And and so I got on this biphasic sleep chat where I would work during the day, right, or theGrio wherever I was working and then sleep for like 3 hours, wake up in the middle of the night, write, work on the book and then sleep again, wake up in the morning and do the same thing over and over. I am still in that sleep like I can’t get out of it because it actually works, right? You feel– first of all, you know, like when you sleep for a long time, you wake up kind of groggy, with this biphasic sleep, like you have to pop back up like you just took a nap kind of. And so you get your REM sleep, but you get it in small doses. And then that middle witching hour, you kind of fresh, you’re wide awake and you can do your work.
Maiysha Kai [00:16:06] I love that you put even that in a historical context. Like, okay, that does– now you have me going down the rabbit hole about biphasic sleep. You know, I was so– first of all, when we talk about you, we we have to talk about a whole gang of other people. You are surrounded by such a huge community of other brilliant thinkers. You are part of some brilliant projects, you know. I mean, this is a podcast about writing. So even though most of our focus is going to be on this incredible debut, you know, I also have to shout out the fact that, like you are an Emmy nominated writer for the Amber Ruffin show.
Amber Ruffin Show [00:16:43] That’s my logo. My show’s got jokes. If you want to get rid of people who don’t belong, get your pasty ass back on the Mayflower and go home. Sketches. That is so true. And of course, thoughtful monologues on how to defeat systemic racism. All aboard the redemption train.
Maiysha Kai [00:17:03] You teach, you do so many things. And I think, like the balance thing is what I guess I was I was curious about. And this idea also of like bringing identity into everything that you do. Because one of the things I do love about your writing and just about you as a person is that you are not a person– there is not a code switching thing that I see with you. You are always you. You were always like, This is what it is.
theGrio Daily [00:17:31] I don’t have any evidence that good cops exist. And the New Deal basically built America’s middle class by giving money to white people. So they were taking Black people’s tax money and using it to build a white middle class. About the other Thomas Jefferson that no one ever talks about. Right. By any measure, he was a racist.
Maiysha Kai [00:17:53] And I think you alluded a little bit to the fact that like that has something to do with growing up in a space that didn’t ask you to, at least, I guess, in those most formative, like early years. So like, tell me a little bit about– I would love to hear a little bit more about, you know, growing up, being homeschooled by Dorothy Harriot and the middle room.
Michael Hariot [00:18:16] Yes.
Maiysha Kai [00:18:16] For people who aren’t familiar with that yet.
Michael Hariot [00:18:18] Yeah. So I grew up– one of the things that I’m lucky enough to say is like I have a family where like everyone was allowed and still is allowed to be whoever they are. And so I didn’t have to worry about fitting in and all the quirky, you know, weird parts of me were just like, “That’s Mikey.” And so I think that informed– like, that gives me a sense of security. Like when everything swirls around you, you are grounded in knowing who you are, where you came from. And then like that extended to my hometown, to, you know, my family, my friends. And in a sense, I was raised by this like big family slash community that kind of laid the foundation. And that’s kind of the foundation of this book. I tell it through the eyes of my family, through stories of my family. And one of the premises of the book is that if there is a capital of Black America, then it is South Carolina, right? 40% of enslaved people were disembarked from South Carolina, about 90% spent some time in South Carolina. So it’s kind of the home of Black people. So I was from like the center of Black where, you know, the South Carolina culture, I argue in the book and American culture is Black culture that’s been expanded into other kind of geographies and other cultural norms, but it’s just all Black culture. And I think that being grounded in that like gives be a space to be comfortable enough to like wherever I expand into, I also know that this is where I’m from and who I am.
Black AF History Excerpt [00:20:13] For Black Americans, South Carolina stands as the capital of the known world. Understanding the history and legacy of Africans in America, and America itself, cannot begin with the tea-tossing frat boys of Boston or even the self-righteous Constitution writers of the North. America’s fortune, fame, and even its independence began in South Carolina.
Maiysha Kai [00:20:38] So, Michael, on a personal note, I mean, you know, you were just talking about South Carolina and, you know, obviously it being the root of Black culture. I just found out recently after years of thinking that my whole family was from Mississippi, that half of them are from South Carolina. I’m going to 96, South Carolina. Are you familiar with 96 South Carolina? Because I’m going there for my family reunion next year.
Michael Hariot [00:21:01] Yeah, yeah, yeah. I don’t know if you even know this, but one of my ex-fiancee, is from– you know Eartha Kitt? Yeah, wait, I never told you that? Eartha Kitt? Like, I’m technically almost Batman. Right? Because Eartha Kitt– yes, she proposed to me. Right. So. So for real, for real, for real. So I am partly the reason Eartha Kitt knows where she was from.
Maiysha Kai [00:21:31] And you’re saying she’s from 96 South Carolina?
Michael Hariot [00:21:36] Yeah. So when– I used to work at. At Benedict College and we had, like, this dance production every year, and Eartha Kitt agreed to come and perform in it. And so we– I had a class to research her ancestry, and find her actual birth certificate. She’d never known where she was from. She was the– she thought– like the woman she thought was her mother was, I mean, her sister was actually our mother. And she moved away from there. She was the– like our sister– the woman she thought was her sister was a mother who had had her with the person who enslaved her family. And she moved away with her aunt. And we found her birth certificate. And when we presented it to her, she proposed to me. And I thought about it. Right. And I told I get back to her on it. And, you know, we never got back together. But I think technically that makes me Batman.
Maiysha Kai [00:22:35] She was Catwoman.
Michael Hariot [00:22:36] Bat girl, right? So that technically makes me almost bat– like, that could have been Batman. See ya’ll don’t even know. Like, I’m like a lowkey superhero.
Maiysha Kai [00:22:44] You’re a superhero finding her whole genealogy. And now I want– I’m going to be– let me call of Ancestry. Now I want to know if we’re related. If I’m related to Eartha Kitt, ya’ll ain’t going to be able to tell me nothing. I could be related.
Michael Hariot [00:22:55] You could be related.
Maiysha Kai [00:22:56] We could have been related if you had just followed through.
Michael Hariot [00:22:58] 96 is really small.
Maiysha Kai [00:23:02] Yeah. My gosh.
Michael Hariot [00:23:03] Yeah. Yeah. We could have been like.
Maiysha Kai [00:23:05] Maybe she’s part of Chapelle family. I’m part of the Chapelle’s.
Michael Hariot [00:23:08] My cousin in law. I don’t know .
Maiysha Kai [00:23:08] Of South Carolina, apparently. All right, well, you know, I’m going to I’m going to look into that. I do want to get back to the book. I love that we just got a Michael Harriot moment. A Michael Harriot moment of that involves Eartha Kitt. Who knew? Who would have guessed that? All right. Well, we’ll be back with more Writing Black.
theGrio Daily Podcast [00:23:28] Yo, come look at what Michael Harriot just posted. Black Twitter. Come get yo mans. It’s this podcast episode for me. I was today years old when I found out Michael Harriot had a podcast. Subscribed. I’m world famous wypipologist Michael Harriot and this is theGrio Daily. That’s right. The Black Twitter King has a podcast. TheGrio Daily with Michael Harriot every Monday, Wednesday and Friday on the Real Black Podcast Network and accessible wherever you find your favorite podcasts.
Maiysha Kai [00:23:58] Okay. And we are back with more Writing Black. You know, we have seen an uptick in people homeschooling. I think your mom was ahead of the times. She was on to something there.
Michael Hariot [00:24:08] As an adult, she informed me that my early homeschooled education was an experiment due to her belief that, “A Black child could not fully realize their humanity in the presence of whiteness.” Although she drew Albers or mathematics, grammar and the Bible, our schooling was primarily self-directed, courtesy of the middle room. I read anything and everything which led to many awkward incidents, like the strange side-eye I received at church after I read The Autobiography of Malcolm X at nine years old and began ending every sentence with “if it is Allah’s will.”
Maiysha Kai [00:24:47] Do you see like kind of a model here for, you know, because we’re seeing this assault on American education. Right. Which was already sketched to begin with in terms of history and how history was told. And we’re seeing this further assault on it. You know, when you write a book like this, you know, I’m again, I’m sitting here, Pharrell Williams, commenting on this book saying, among other things, this is what everyone wishes their high school courses, you know, were actually like, true. But do you see a model here? I mean, would– would you promote a model like yours the way that you grew up? Because it is so unique and it’s so and yet so organic and this is what you get, you know?.
Michael Hariot [00:25:33] I think homeschooling, you know, kind of made me who I am. Like I always say, like, I really didn’t learn stuff in school, but I don’t know if homeschooling, like, necessarily like you are going to know more of your history through homeschooling. So when you made that reference to the middle room, maybe I should explain. There was a big room in my house where like my entire family and really my entire community deposited their books. I gravitated toward those history books because they were like, true story. But my education was like generally self-directed, right? I was around a lot of people, like my family was heavily involved in a lot of pivotal events in the civil rights movement. But like, they never sat me down and said, You need to learn this. You need to do this. Like, that was kind of my upbringing. So, my education at the beginning was largely self-directed. So I think home schooling can produce these results. But I don’t know if like just sitting your child down in a room filled with books is going to always produce the right results. I think there has to be kind of a balance. And like, luckily I got somewhat of a right balance. But I mean, I still have problems I like. I’d get in trouble because when I went to school because like I was almost out of high school before I could remember to write my name on the top of the paper. Right? So I had teachers that would give you a zero if you didn’t write your name on the top of the paper or like to raise your hand if you want to use to the bathroom. That is a weird thing. And so like the socialization aspects I struggle with when I went into a regular public high- public school, but I think there is a balance that could be achieved with homeschooling and a grounding that would direct someone throughout the rest of their life.
Maiysha Kai [00:27:37] Yeah, I mean, I was fascinated because I do think again, I think we are all kind of– those of us who care about American education, particularly care about Black people in American education, I’m looking for answers right now, how to circumvent the system. But I want to talk about more of that. We’ll be right back with more Michael Harriot and more Writing Black and more Black AF History.
theGrio Daily Podcast [00:27:58] Yo, come look at what Michael Harriot just posted. Black Twitter. Come get yo mans. It’s this podcast episodes for me. I was today years old when I found out Michael Harriot had a podcast. Subscribed. I’m world famous wypipologist Michael Harriot and this is theGrio Daily. That’s right. The Black Twitter King has a podcast. TheGrio Daily with Michael Harriot every Monday, Wednesday and Friday on theGrio Black Podcast Network and accessible wherever you find your favorite podcasts.
Maiysha Kai [00:28:29] We’re back with more Writing Black and our guest today, Michael “the” Harriet, my friend and colleague here at theGrio, who is, you know, the brilliant, the brilliant writer behind this book, Black AF History, where if you followed, you know, Michael, on the social media, the platform formerly known as Twitter, as we say, you already know, he is deep, deep, deep in knowledge, deep, deep, deep in Blackness and really connecting the dots for people. You know, I think that’s such a talent. You know, you talk about building a platform, like you said, Oh, I’m lucky to have this platform. I’m like, No, you built a platform. You built an audience. How do you feel– I mean, obviously that landscape is changing as well. How do you feel about putting so much intellectual property into the universe? And how do you feel about like, you know, the ways in which that landscape is changing as well? This this landscape that, you know, where you really kind of– you have built a platform and a very loyal audience of listeners.
Michael Hariot [00:29:37] Yeah. So I think one of the things that, like, I have never understood is when people ask me like “Well, give me some advice on how to do it.” I always tell them like, “I don’t know.” And so, Maiysha heard this, ya’ll, but I always tell people I am like a 60 year old janitor and you tell me where to mop up the vomit– you tell me where the vomit is and I’ll mop it up. And so my thing has always been like, I just do the work I write. And sometimes I’m writing for theGrio. Sometimes I write it or Twitter. Sometimes I write it for a television show. But the intellectual property that we call it, but the stuff that you put it to the world, you just put it into the world and I don’t know if I necessarily have this like grand plan or an objective of what I want that to look like or where I want to end up because of it, right? I am more concerned with doing the work and I feel like all the other stuff will take care of itself. If you just put out enough work that you know, people can see, then somebody will like this and somebody like that. But the– I don’t know if there’s a grand scheme, but I think that with anything, if you worry about the work and doing the work and and building yourself a set of skills then someone will notice that and how you monetize it and how you translate that into whatever you want to do, you will get that, but you have to have the work first, right? Like nobody is going to believe you because I’m a great writer or I’m a great historian, you know, you just put the writing out there and put the history out there and you let other people tell you or read it and judge for themselves.
Maiysha Kai [00:31:40] I love that answer because it’s such a writer’s answer, to0o. I think, like there is that thing that happens. Like even when, you know, you’re a great writer, it’s like, you know, that’s why I’m asking you questions about time. I’m asking you questions about space, intellectual property. And we do sometimes forget, I think, you know, because we are in a world that’s like produce, produce, produce, produce, and we stop producing, ironically. You know, you are incredibly prolific, you know, I’m so struck by that answer. I love that answer so much. But you also you approach things and this is something I always marvel at with you, because, of course, having worked together for so long, I have seen firsthand some of the stuff that you encounter in terms of, I guess, backlash would be the best way to say it. You know, you say in the book, you point out very early and very clearly that, you know, not only is this a book that’s not centered around whiteness, but really calling out the concept of whiteness for what it is, which is whiteness is fear. And we’ve seen how that fear, how destructive that fear can be. How do you navigate? I mean, you know, there’s there’s obviously the fear that a lot of us creatives have, you know, in terms of getting ourselves out into the universe and what we have to say out to the universe. But how do you navigate the response to what I can only call, you know, just typical Michael honesty like, well, no, this is just what it is, you know what I mean?
Michael Hariot [00:33:10] Well, part of that is grounded in, again, always knowing that you have a home, you have a family, you have community around you. And that extends to just Black people in general. And some of it is that one thing I make clear in the book is that a lot of times that pushback is because white people do not know what they are talking about. A white person cannot tell me anything about almost anything Black, Right? They don’t know history. They don’t know what it’s like to live in this country as a Black person. So when those people, you know, push back, I know that it’s coming from a place of someone who– for lack of a better word, their dumb. Right. And we live in a country where they are used to not being called out on their stupidity. Right. So like the stupidity of whiteness is self-perpetuating because nobody says, “hey, white people are wrong.” Right? They are more likely to see something wrong and think it right because nobody is going to say, “Hey, y’all are wrong about this.” Right? So a lot of it is that like dumb people shouldn’t be listened to. Like my mama used to say all the time, you know, like, if there’s such a thing as average intelligent, then at least half of the people are below average, right? And so a lot of those people still have computers. They still got email addresses, and they can reach out to me. But again, I know that what I am talking about when they push back, it’s from a perspective of dumbness. And I kind of don’t have any interest in dissecting or like spending my time wondering about why dumb people act dumb.
Maiysha Kai [00:35:17] That’s such a great answer. Why do dumb people act down? You know, we were talking about intellectual property is going to go and I wanted to clarify a couple of things. You know, you’re wearing a Black AF T-Shirt for those of our listeners who are not seeing Michael, that’s what he’s wearing. Obviously. That’s a name. That’s a reference to this book as well. There’s also the phrase Wypipo. Can you tell me a little bit about adding new phrases and words into the lexicon? I don’t know that you always get the credit that you deserve, but I know that some of these things started with you, and I just want to verify that just for my own edification. And again, talk about what does it feel like when people are just like, start using these phrases like indiscriminately, just like this is out there?
Michael Hariot [00:36:02] So yea, I don’t know if I’d heard Black AF before I started using it. Actually, a lot of people don’t know that I am a poet also and I would, you know, go to spoken word venues. And of course when you work, you know, spoken word is like– yeah, it ain’t like I’m Beyoncé if spoken word, right. So even the most popular spoken word person, they kind of have to figure out a way to make money to spread the art. Right. And so I would sell these T-Shirts, like across the country, like, like in the 2000s, in the early 2000s, I started selling these T-Shirts. They were just Black AF and people would buy them. And I don’t know if, like the TV show and other people, like, saw the T-Shirts, or heard me use the words in my writing, but be like, nope, they can’t challenge me. Like, I even had, you know, phone calls with, you know, the creator of the TV show Black, what’s that? Black AF. You know, there is no, you know, trademark infringement because like, I was doing it first. And the same thing with Wypipo and like, some of the stuff catches on and some of it don’t. Like all it is stuff like you can look at my– like invited to the cookout, right? Like it just popped years ago and like I don’t walk around and be like “yo, you know that’s my thing.” Because again, you do the work and some people like it and sometimes it catches on and some times it doesn’t. Right. And so the stuff that catches on, you kind of keep moving on. You use it, but you keep moving on it, trying to create new things and and new ideas and putting new things into the public lexicon. But I don’t really spend much time like arguing with people or trying to say, you know, I deserve credit for it because like, I don’t know if there– what do I get? There ain’t no Black AF Oscars or cultural phrase Oscars, right?
Maiysha Kai [00:38:17] There should be.
Michael Hariot [00:38:18] It’s just the thing that’s out.
Maiysha Kai [00:38:22] You know, And it’s such– you are such a gift to the culture. I put it to you this way, though, it does catch on because my 75-year-old mother one day just casually was like, well, you know wypipo and said, “Excuse me?” What’s happening right now? So, listen, itt catches on. It’s generational. It is a gift. You’re so hilarious.
Michael Hariot [00:38:43] And it actually started because like you remember when Facebook was flagging posts that just said “white people.” And so it was like my way of getting around like social media flags and now it emerged into like a cultural freight.
Maiysha Kai [00:38:59] Well you know, as you this this segways us nicely because, you know, as you already explained to us, there is another book on the way that we can expect that has Wypipology, I believe you said it is called. Now, you know, obviously our focus right now is on Black AF history. But how do these two– are these companion pieces like how did these two books work together?
Michael Hariot [00:39:22] Yeah, there’ll be a companion piece, though. Black AF History is, you know, history. Wypipo– Wypipology is more of kind of a sociological, it’s grounded in economic theory. And so explain stuff that like, you know, why do white people always talk about Black on Black crime? Like is Black on Black crime of thing? And then we’ll examine it or, you know, like, for instance, we ask the question and use economic theory to investigate like our Black people more athletic? Why can’t white people clap on beat? Like we talk about that in real terms, like in joke– it’s a joke, but there are historical and cultural differences, right?
Maiysha Kai [00:40:09] It’s funny because it’s true.
Michael Hariot [00:40:10] Right. Right. And so we examine that. We examine stuff like, why do we season our food better? Right. There are actual reasons for that. And we explore those things in Wypipology. It’s because the basis of it, the basis of that idea is that like, if you want to know about racism and white supremacy and how America worked, you can’t learn it by just focusing on Black people because Black people didn’t create race. We didn’t create white supremacy, we didn’t create racism. We don’t perpetrate it. So you have to understand white people. Thus Wypipology.
Maiysha Kai [00:40:50] I cannot wait. I really can’t. You also have a podcast forthcoming. I’ve heard some things about. I want to hear a little more about that. We don’t we don’t always promote non-Grio podcast, but you are Grio fam. We want to know what you’re up to. I don’t know how you’re fitting another thing into your already very full plate. But tell me about– is it it’s Draptetomaniax? Is that.
Michael Hariot [00:41:12] Yeah. Drapetomaniax. So Drapetomania was this idea that was an actual medical diagnosis that Black people’s desire for freedom was a mental illness. So we took that idea and expanded it. And so Drapetomaniac is like, if the Chappelle Show met the 1619 project, right. It is we take a person or an event every week and we use celebrity guests to voice the characters. And it’s like an episode of Investigate– real history that investigates, you know, one of these people and and why they were a Drapetomaniac. For instance, we use– like we have an episode upcoming about Ida B. Wells and so we asked some of you like I can’t reveal the names yet, but some of your favorite rappers are taking Ida B Wells’ writing and translating them into battle raps. So it’s the many beefs of Ida B. Well. So when she was dealing with Booker T. Washington, you’ll hear Ida B. Wells rap against Booker T. Washington. You’re going to hear her spit game at White Suffragettes, right? That’s what Drapetomaniax is, right. It’s funny, it’s– you’ll recognize the voices because they’re from the culture but it is history made funny and interesting. We use music. We musicians contribute, so it’s really interesting. The sound design is really interesting and it’s made by Black people from across the world. So our staff has people like, I’ll be in a meeting and the sound engineer is saying, “Hey, you got to hold on for a second, my monkeys are outside,” because she’s in Kenya and she has monkeys, right? Or, you know, I’ll have to do something in the middle of the night because my producer is an expat who lives in Amsterdam. So it is really interesting and it’s really interesting to hear all of these perspectives in this podcast and you’ll have like– for instance, Roland Martin and Yvette Nicole Brown was in one of our episodes, Charlamagne tha God like everybody that from the culture that you know you’re going to hear their voices in this podcast.
Maiysha Kai [00:43:32] Well, I mean, it speaks to your appeal and your strength that you were able to get out those names. I can’t wait to hear it. It sounds hilarious. Back to this new release, though. You know, I kind of asked you a variation on this earlier, but I’m going to ask you again, like, do you have any hopes for this book? Like, how do you hope that it sits in the lexicon now? Because as you stated, there are a lot of Black history books. You know, we’ve seen this surge in interest in Black writers over the last several years. We know why. But, you know, this is such an important book. And I personally am, you know, excited to be part of helping you, you know, get the word out. But how do you how people engage with this and how do you hope they use it? And, you know, will it be the worst thing in the world if it ends up in a classroom?
Michael Hariot [00:44:22] It won’t be. My hope for this book is that it’s one of those books that is in every middle room, in every home and on every bookshelf. And so, like, not just on the bestseller list, you know, when it comes out, but like 15, 20 years from now, some child like me will be wandering through their version of the middle road and was like, “What is this book?” And open it and start reading it the same way I read the Black book, same way I will read Before the Mayflower or The Souls of Black Folk. What are those books? Right. That is on Black bookshelves and is passed along and becomes part of our documentation of our history.
Maiysha Kai [00:45:10] Well, it is definitely going to be on my Christmas list this year being sent out to my family, who I think will enjoy it greatly. But, you know, we know that behind every great writer, especially a writer like you, there’s a lot of reading. You’ve talked about a lot of books in this podcast. I do want to also again shout out Blair Kelley, who had a big part of Black AF History. But who do you read? You know, like, who who are you reading? Who excites you? Who further informs your work?
Michael Hariot [00:45:39] So I love one of my favorite writers is Paul Beatty. I am a huge Paul Beatty fan. Greg Tate is probably my biggest influence, along with Paul Beatty. Chester Himes who is– like, those are the, you know, the Mount Olympus or the what’s that mountain in North Dakota that those white people faces are on?
Maiysha Kai [00:46:07] Rushmore.
Michael Hariot [00:46:07] Like Mount Rushmore.
Maiysha Kai [00:46:09] That’s your your Mount Blackmore.
Michael Hariot [00:46:10] Yeah. Yeah. So I read those people and currently I’m reading like Blair Kelley, I’m reading, you know, the Black authors that are around today. Of course, I’m a big fan of Damon Young, you know, who is one of our colleague. Right.
Maiysha Kai [00:46:30] Yes. We love Damon Young.
Michael Hariot [00:46:32] And so I read people from today. I read– I’m a huge Zora Neale Hurston fan. She’s the fourth face on that Mount Olyp– that Mount Rushmore for me. And so that’s who I read. I read old stuff. I read new stuff. I read anything interesting and funny and intelligent.
Maiysha Kai [00:46:53] Well, you are all of the above. I cannot thank you enough for coming and sharing some insights and just yourself with us. I also can’t thank you enough for being my friend. I think, you know, it’s– you are such a delight and you’re so brilliant and I am hoping for nothing but the best for this book and the ones to follow. Michael Harriot, ya’ll.
Michael Hariot [00:47:16] Thank you for having me.
Maiysha Kai [00:47:18] Oh, our pleasure. Always.
Speaker 4 [00:47:23] Yo, come look at what Michael Harriet just posted. Black Twitter. Come get yo mans. It’s this podcast episode for me. I was today, years old when I found out Michael Harriet had a podcast subscribed. I’m world famous wypipologist Michael Harriot and this is theGrio Daily. That’s right. The Black Twitter King has a podcast. TheGrio Daily with Michael Harriot every Monday, Wednesday and Friday on theGrio Black Podcast Network and accessible wherever you find your favorite podcasts.
Maiysha Kai [00:47:54] Well, as I expected, that was an amazing conversation with my good friend Michael Harriot. I am so proud to call him my friend. So proud of this book, Black AF History, even though I had nothing to do with it, but highly recommend you picking that up. Also, pick up Blair Kelley’s Black Folk: The Roots of the Black Working Class, which is going to give you even more dimension, more history. That is one of Mai Favorites this week because, you know, this is the portion of the show where I give you my favorites recommended reading. I’m also going to recommend another great commentator who is always insightful on political issues. Elle Mystal’s Allow Me to Retort: A Black Guy’s Guide to the Constitution. And what I love about all three of these books is, again, you know exactly what Michael was talking about, us not needing to look at our history through anybody else’s lens. We have our own perspective, we have our own experience, and it is valid and it is real and it is ours. Just like this podcast is yours. So please come back again and join us for more Writing Black. We’ll see you then. Thanks so much for joining us for this week’s episode of Writing Black. As always, you can find us on theGrio app or wherever you find your podcasts.
