Fans of The Roots are getting an intimate look into the early life of the group’s co-founder, Tariq “Black Thought” Trotter, in his memoir “The Upcycled Self.” The Philadelphia native joins Writing Black to talk about the love stories he says shaped him into one of hip-hop’s most treasured MCs. Black Thought also shares why now was the time to reveal his most vulnerable side to the world.
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[00:00:00] Panama Jackson: You are now listening to theGrio’s Black Podcast Network, Black Culture Amplified.
[00:00:06] Maiysha Kai: Hello and welcome to another episode of Writing Black. I’m your host, Maisha Kai, lifestyle editor here at theGrio, and I am having a full circle moment today because our guest, I’ve been a stan of since 1994. Here in Chicago at the Double Door, The Roots did this incredible show.
[00:00:27] I was in the audience and I have followed them ever since. I have had the pleasure of performing with this crew. I have known several of the members and one of. I actually not even one of my favorite emcee of all time is with us today on Writing Black.
[00:00:44] Black Thought: Generation, fast paced nation, world population, confront the frustration.
[00:00:48] Maiysha Kai: That’s right. Tariq Trotter, also known as Black Thought is here to discuss his new memoir, The Upcycled Self. It is so great to have you here.
[00:00:57] Black Thought: Thank you for having me. And thank you for such a beautiful, uh, intro. I need to take you on, take you on the road, boy.
[00:01:04] Maiysha Kai: Listen, you know, I’ve already lived my dream of, uh, performing with the legendary Roots crew, but I, um, was so astounded by this memoir.
[00:01:13] Um, we’re going to dig deep into that and a whole bunch of other things. You know, you, as I said, are my favorite MC of all time, and I know I’m not alone in that. It does not make me unique. Um, but this is not the memoir that I think people would have expected from you. Um. Yes, there’s a little bit of history of how The Roots came to be, but this is really, you know, there’s Black Thought and then there’s Tariq Trotter, and I would love to know why this felt like the right time to tell Tariq Trotter’s story in full.
[00:01:41] Black Thought: I think, you know, part of it might have to do with, uh, midlife, you know, um, but I think a huge chunk of it is having, having, uh, you know, told my story or some variation or version of my story, um, for such a long time. You know, there’s no, there was no place left to go, uh, other than sort of the uncharted terrain, which was what I had avoided, you know, I managed to build a career, uh, on avoiding, but, um, yeah, at this, at this stage of the game, that’s, it was sort of the only place to go and I, I felt, um, you know, I felt like, why, why not now also, I felt like, why not now, but then also, you know, now whenever, you know what I mean?
[00:02:25] Like, if not now, then when? You um and yeah, I just sort of got it done, you know, um, yeah, and, and I didn’t, I guess going into the process, I didn’t really realize. Um, you know, how cathartic of, uh, an experience it was going to be, but it was, um, yeah, it’s, it’s, it’s been great.
[00:02:46] Maiysha Kai: You know, you just use one of my favorite words, which is cathartic, um, which I think, you know, at its heart, that is what writing can be.
[00:02:53] And I can even say as a reader, it can be as well. I had some catharsis reading. This, this memoir, um, and you know, the subtitle, which I do think is so important here as well, is this is a memoir on the art of becoming who we are. And, you know, you just, Said something really interesting, which was that you’ve built a career on avoiding, which I think is so wild because I think so many people who have followed your career, um, followed your lyricism, you know, we would never guess that you seem so, uh, I mean, not just thoughtful in everything that you do, but so transparent.
[00:03:31] So, uh, I would love to hear a little bit more about that. Like what you consider to be avoiding. How, how do you feel that manifested in your career?
[00:03:39] Black Thought: I’m just, I’ve, I’ve been super calculated. And, and guarded. Well, I’ve been, you know, I’m always guarded, private, uh, and introverted sort of person. And I’ve just been super calculated with the pieces of myself that I’ve made, uh, you know, available to the listener to, you know, the, my fans, the audience over the years, um, and not in a selfish way. I think I’ve been, you know, generous in other ways, but, you know, the 1 thing that I’ve always held on to, uh, I guess most closely. My personal story, you know what I mean?
[00:04:15] Like the origin story of it all and um, yeah, you know, I always knew that there would be some body of work, you know, through which I would be able to tell that story. I just. You know, I didn’t, I hadn’t realized until a couple years ago that it was going to be, you know, my, my first book, you know, I almost, you know, probably would have bet money that it wouldn’t have been, you know what I’m saying?
[00:04:37] I feel like, uh, you know, an artist’s first book is a memoir. Uh, you know what I’m saying? That’s not, uh, that’s not super unexpected, you know, but, um, I’m, I’m big on listening to the universe and, you know, sort of moving when I feel it’s, it’s, it’s, it’s, it’s time to strike. And, uh, You know, that’s just what I felt in my heart with this story.
[00:04:59] Maiysha Kai: I want to get into this concept of The Upcycled Self. You know, this is a term that, you know, feels very unique to you. Um, and I know that there’s a definition to it, but I would love to hear in your words what that means.
[00:05:13] Black Thought: Um, I’ve been trying to, you know, sort of simplify it for folks since I’ve been on this, on the, on the book tour, just talking about the title a lot.
[00:05:24] Um, in recent weeks, I think it, uh. You know, The Upcycle Self is about doing away with, uh, the, the, the, the protective layer of, of scar tissue and callous, um, that many of us develop, you know, because of past trauma in our lives. And it’s something, you know, it’s a, sometimes we wear it, uh, like a suit of armor, um, you know, ways and actions.
[00:05:55] Um, ideals that at, at one point in our lives, it may have served us and may have served a specific purpose, but no longer do or no longer, you know, service in the same way. So it’s about, um, you know, the wisdom required to recognize what to leave and, and, and, and, and what to sort of re repurpose. Um, I think that’s it at its core.
[00:06:18] That’s what the upcycle stuff is.
[00:06:19] Maiysha Kai: I get it. It’s self defining in a certain way. It also feels a little bit and it’s interesting for to be saying this as Gen Xers. It feels a bit like a coming of age story, like the second phase of growing up that we don’t always acknowledge that we have to do. Um, I want to talk about the process of this.
[00:06:35] I mean, you know, you’ve been part of a collaborative crew for a very long time in the public imagination. I know that there was also a collaborative effort in getting this book to the page. Um, you know, you had a co writer, but you also brought in other voices, um, in the midst of telling this story. How did you make the decision in terms of the process of.
[00:06:57] Telling the story, um, which is primarily linear, but not entirely, and then bringing in these other voices to tell their stories, whether literally or imagined.
[00:07:12] Black Thought: Um, go going into the process. All I knew was that I didn’t want the story to be completely linear. Um, and yeah, you know, I think we just started working on it, um, in a fashion comparable to the way I work on music or musical theater or, you know, just any other sort of, you know, uh, uh, medium of, of, of, of, of storytelling.
[00:07:39] I think we sort of told the story from the inside out. In that way. Um, but yeah, the brilliance of Jeff Martin, who was my, my co co co author, um, was what she was able to bring to the table. And it’s those, the other voices of what you speak, um, you know, when you hear my mother, when you hear, uh, you know, my uncle.
[00:08:00] I’m speaking. Those aren’t their exact words. And I mean, it’s well, in my uncle’s case, he’s, you know, my oldest surviving relative and Jasmine has, uh, you know, interviewed him in the past. Like, they’ve had conversations for other projects, but in my mother’s case, her only point of reference was, um, you know, like my, my recollection and.
[00:08:20] You know, maybe, you know, what she heard secondhand in those conversations with my uncle and I think it was brilliant the way she was able to, uh, to really embody, uh, my mother’s energy and spirit. And, um, yeah, I can’t really describe it, but, you know, people who have read the book who knew my mother and who, you know, have always known me well.
[00:08:42] Got the same sort of feeling. You know what? I mean, it’s something I don’t know that even she’s able to explain, but that’s yeah, that’s like what you’re talking about. That’s that’s Jasmine Martin.
[00:08:51] Maiysha Kai: Well, shout out to Jasmine Martin, and we’re going to talk a little bit more about process when we come right back with more Tariq Trotter and more Writing Black.
[00:09:03] Touré: I’m Toure. Join us for crazy true stories about stars who I really hung out with like Snoop, Jay Z, Prince, Kanye. And the time I got kidnapped by Suge Knight, don’t miss my animated series, Star Stories with Toray from theGrio Black Podcast Network.
[00:09:28] Maiysha Kai: And we’re back with Writing Black and today’s guest, my favorite MC, Tariq Trotter, and his memoir, The Upcycled Self, a memoir on the art of becoming who we are. Um, Tariq Trotter. Um, This story functions so well on so many levels. Um, I know it was cathartic for you. I think people who engage with it are going to, I mean, there were tears for me, for sure.
[00:09:51] Um, there’s also a lot of, I saw a lot of myself in this book. I think a lot of people of our generation, especially people who grew up with hip hop, people who, um, grew up with words, loving words, loving art. Um, we’ll get into this. Creatives will really get into this book. So I highly recommend it to all y’all out there.
[00:10:08] I think everybody has something to get from this, but I want to talk a little bit about words for a second because, you know, you and I are both in the business of words. I think, you know, anybody who loves you and your artistry knows that your wordplay is unparalleled, right? So can we do a little word association for a second?
[00:10:26] Cause I have some words that come to mind when I think about this book. Um, one of them being, yeah. Self aware, self aware would be a word. I didn’t guess that’s two words. Um, funny, um, gosh, honest. Um, and, uh, oh gosh, what’s this word I’m looking for? It’s, uh, there is a, I’ll say transparent, but there’s a, there’s a recognition of how shame functions in this book that I think is really interesting, but what are some words you would associate with this book and the process of writing this book?
[00:11:06] Black Thought: Well, definitely, you know, self awareness or, you know, a sense of self discovery, I guess, um, you know, um, a stripping down, uh, I think, um, this is the, the most accessible I’ve been in my, in my storytelling. So, uh, yeah, I think accessible, you know, I’ve given. As they say, unprecedented entree into the, uh, into the, um, I mean, this is the real process because this is, uh, you know, why I sort of am the way that I am, which, you know, informs why I work the way that I work, you know, um, but yeah, I think the folks are going to be able to find different value in different parts of the story.
[00:11:56] You know what I mean? Um, you know, there’s different elements that people are going to latch on to as they see themselves in it. Um, but yeah, you know, I think, you know, just different, different parts of the story for different reasons. So I think that’s, that’s, what’s been exciting, um, has been the feedback, you know what I’m saying?
[00:12:12] The folks, you know, telling me, uh, you know, what, uh, particularly resonated with them and why, um, it’s been huge and, you know what I’m saying, uh, some surprises and it’s, it’s, it’s been great. It’s been awesome to be out to promote a thing that, um, I mean, in many ways has nothing to do with music, you know, has been a new experience for me, um, it’s something that really set in the other night at a book event that we did at USC, where, I mean, I guess there were over 2000 people in the, in the table, you know, it was the ground level, then a balcony, then another balcony, and a line around the block, this sold out sort of event.
[00:12:52] Um, and they weren’t there to hear me sing songs and I didn’t, you know, I didn’t have to freestyle or anything. So it was, um, I feel like, uh, you know, I, I hit a, I reached a threshold as a, as a storyteller. I mean, in many ways, like this year sort of represents, um, just a threshold for me, um, as a storyteller, right?
[00:13:10] I’m nominated for a Grammy for something, uh, that is a spoken word acapella piece. That is, you know, like my first sort of non roots capacity. Uh, nomination. Um, so yeah, you know, to speak to what you were saying about words.
[00:13:26] Maiysha Kai: And congratulations on that, by the way. Um, and I love that you spoke to that because one of the questions I had for you or one of the things that struck me because, you know, I think another word that I would associate with you is enigmatic.
[00:13:37] You’re, you’ve, you have been a bit of an enigma. Um, and so, It was really refreshing to also hear about this early life of creativity and to really see you firmly establish yourself as I think something that a lot of us might know, but you’re a polymath. I mean, you’re not, you’re not only an MC, right?
[00:13:56] You’re also an artist, a visual artist, uh, you know, a singer, a dancer, a, you know, like so many, some of these other facets of, You know, the entity that we might publicly know as Black Thought, you know, um, a father, a husband, you know, all those, all those other aspects that you, you draw in here. Um, and one of my favorite, one of the things that I really got into, cause it echoed my own childhood so much was this idea of a developmental, a development of encyclopedic knowledge, but like literally.
[00:14:26] Through the encyclopedia. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Now people who read the book will obviously get into this, but I would love for you to talk about the meaning of the encyclopedia in your early life and how it still informs you. Because again, no better words, Smith. And when we talk about the relationship there, I, it was just stunning to me.
[00:14:45] Black Thought: I was trying to follow as closely as possible with your, uh, with your list of, um, you know, Like boxes that, that I was able to check as a polymath, but, um, in all honesty, I’m, I’m not a dancer. So, uh, everything you said. Okay. Fair, fair. Right.
[00:15:05] Maiysha Kai: I think I wanted you to be in my mind.
[00:15:08] Black Thought: Yeah. Except for the dancing part.
[00:15:09] I mean, uh, I’m thinking like break beats.
[00:15:14] It’s never been my strong suit. Um, you know, the encyclopedia for me was my, um, it was, it was early, uh, escapism, right? I, um, I’ve always had a fascination with, uh, literature and vocabulary and, um, you know, history and geography and, um, Just that whole thing, you know, I’ve never really been too into, I mean, I guess, you know, science on a surface, but I was never really science and math.
[00:15:50] I was, you know. English and history, you know, I mean, um, is what really appealed to me. So my earliest escapism, you know, was, um, into these encyclopedias that my mother had around the house. She had the world book encyclopedia, you know, collection, which was essentially that was our, uh, internet. That was my first, um.
[00:16:11] You know, like that was a world wide web to me. With all this new music and language swirling around me, I did what I knew best and returned to books. This is when my favorite competitive cousin, Sean G and I, started to pick random words from the dictionary and try to put them in the best four to eight bar raps we could imagine.
[00:16:28] That simple exercise became my training ground. Tapping into books, even the dictionary for inspiration, was a habit that became core to not just how I write, but also how I think. Reading sparked my imagination in a way similar to art, catapulting me into worlds and concepts far beyond my immediate surroundings.
[00:16:50] The breadth of information that you sort of feel in my, in my lyrics and in my writing, um, has always been informed by that. And, you know, early in, like, my earliest influences were, uh, it was the World Book Encyclopedia. It was, um, The Reader’s Digest, um, and it was a National Geographic magazine.
[00:17:10] Maiysha Kai: But you choose to open this book at obviously this really pivotal point in your childhood that you’ve alluded to many times, but you take us into it.
[00:17:19] You take us into reliving it in this really visceral way. Um, you know, we can smell the smoke. We can see the reaction. We can feel the. The, the lighter in the hand, um, would it be wrong to say that in some sense in choosing to open the memoir this way? And maybe this was a choice that you and Jasmine made together.
[00:17:45] I assume it was, um. Was there a sense of burning it all down, like burning down that facade a bit as well?
[00:17:53] Black Thought: Um, yeah. Yeah, absolutely. There was, um, you know, there was a, I think the, the, the spirit of, of this memoir is that of the Phoenix, right? So, um, I think, you know, it begins, even though, you know, at, at, at the young age of, of six, where you find me, uh, at the beginning of, of, of this book.
[00:18:14] Um, it wasn’t my first, uh, you know, trauma. It wasn’t like the first tragedy that I’d experienced, but, um, it felt like a watershed moment in that it was definitely a point after which, like, nothing was ever the same, you know? And it was my first, uh, time, uh, you know, like, sort of being able to really feel, feel something like that.
[00:18:36] In the fire, we lost ourselves. No one ever blamed me. My mother offered enormous grace knowing that I was just a child. But once you burn down your home, everything else is small in comparison. That experience of total loss became the basis of all that I am, even though my mother can’t see that now. Um, so, yeah, yeah.
[00:19:01] Um, I think the spirit of this story, though, is that of the phoenix and, you know, things having been, you know, just things right? Uh, you know, pieces, parts, you know, pieces of ourselves, many of which, um, were lost in the fire, but, you know, others that were, you know, forged in the fire into, you know, something else.
[00:19:23] So.
[00:19:24] Maiysha Kai: I love that. Um, we’re going to talk a little bit more about that in just a moment when we come back with more Writing Black.
[00:19:33] We are back with Writing Black and today’s guest Tariq Trotter. Uh, Tariq, this incredible memoir, um, that takes us. Into the thoughts of Black Thoughts, um, is I think a real game changer. It is already a bestseller. So congratulations on that. Um, it’s a huge year for you. It’s a huge year for hip hop in general, obviously.
[00:19:57] Um, you know, the timing of this, this memoir and some, some really revelatory memoir memoirs have come out this year. Um, and to which I would add, I mean, yours is already on our recommended reading list here at Writing Black, but, um, what does it mean now, you know, taking it out of just the book. Yeah. You know, you’ve retraced your origin story and it does have this almost, I mean, in the context of your career, it’s all, it is almost like any superheroes origin story is as much as you, you are a living, breathing human, you know, there is this.
[00:20:28] Part that’s, that’s like, wow, you know, look at what can be, um, look at the possibilities here and you’re offering a lot of possibility in this book, um, in the context of also being a leader and a pioneer in a genre that as they say, nobody thought it would get this far. They thought we could take it this far, right?
[00:20:50] Um, what does it mean to be part of that legacy now?
[00:20:54] Black Thought: Um, you know, for me, it’s huge. I mean, it’s always been. Huge to, uh, you know, for me to sort of represent, um, the greater hip hop community, uh, like the greater culture. Um, I’ve always felt, and I think just we, as a collective, we’ve always felt that, uh, responsibility, you know?
[00:21:14] And I think, um, I think it’s a choice, you know what I’m saying? It’s not, it doesn’t necessarily come with the, with the territory, you know, across the board, but, um, for some of us, it’s, it’s a call that, you know, uh, you know, we, we respond to. Um, and yeah, yeah, you know, I think it’s an honor, but you know, this year more than ever, um, with hip hop turning 50, me turning 50, uh, it’s, it’s just, it’s definitely felt, um, you know, it’s, it’s, it’s felt monumental in, in, in, in very many ways, but yeah, I’ve never taken that responsibility, that honor that has been bestowed upon me to sort of represent, um, you know, hip hop on a multi generational level. Um, for granted, you know what I mean? It’s something that, uh, I think has, I don’t know, I’ve, I’ve over time built my brand upon that. And it’s something that, you know, folks have come to trust. You have artists who sometimes haven’t performed, you know, for years and don’t feel as comfortable coming out.
[00:22:14] And. You know what I mean? Um, the fact that I’m familiar and that The Roots, uh, musicians, um, are as familiar with, with, with that classic material as we are, it puts a lot of those artists at ease and it, you know, just brings them right back to Mm-Hmm, , you know, when they, when, when they was lit. Lit. You know what I mean?
[00:22:31] So it’s, um, yeah, there’s, there’s definitely, uh, yeah, there, there’s, there’s many a full circle moment in it.
[00:22:38] Maiysha Kai: I think, listen, I think that is entirely accurate. I had the pleasure of being at The Roots Jammy Jam this, this past year at the Grammys. And yes, absolutely. I’m still, I’m still bopping a little bit every time I think of that Too Short performance.
[00:22:50] That was, I’m not going to tell you how low I dropped it because my, my knees can’t quite take it the way they used to, but, but you know, there’s, um, There’s a lot of love in this book. I mean, there’s there’s a few love stories that are happening concurrently. Obviously, there’s your love of creativity, your love of art, your love of music, your love of hip hop.
[00:23:11] There’s this deep and profound love of your mother, um, who you really, you know, you said you, you made the, the comparison to the Phoenix. And I would agree. And I think in a lot of ways you, um, and I say this having not known her, so I hope not to over tread, but you reincarnated her in a way. Okay. Um, you know, really bringing her full humanity to the surface.
[00:23:36] Black Thought: My mother had to piece her life together over and over again, especially as a woman brave enough to choose her own path in the turmoil of the 60s, 70s, and 80s in Philadelphia. From the loss of my father to me burning the house down to her first son’s constant incarcerations to the violence that surrounded her like a haunting destiny, there was never a straight path for her.
[00:23:59] Her survival was a feat of tricky navigation. But love was at her core, radiating out from the deepest parts of her soul and coloring her every interaction and intention. Cassie lived her life fully, with equal amounts laughter and tears and pain, all to the brim. She could see past the bane of this realm and maintain a pureness and clarity in her vision of who she was, who I was.
[00:24:24] And who she wanted me to be
[00:24:26] this,
[00:24:26] Maiysha Kai: this thing that happens, you know, with loved ones where memories can get flattened. Um, especially, um, when it feels like their flaws, match, you know, seem to supersede their virtues. Um, and that felt really, really gorgeously rendered and really, really, um, beautifully done.
[00:24:47] Was that Was that a really difficult process for you, or was it something you’ve been meditating on long enough that you were just eager to get it out?
[00:24:56] Black Thought: You know, for me, it was a little of both. It’s something that I definitely have meditated on for quite some time. And, um, I felt an urgency to, to get it out.
[00:25:08] But, um, yeah, there’s still an anxiety associated with that. So I still feel like if there, you know, if there is a transaction taking place in the whole, you know, creator beholder dynamic. Um, I still haven’t completely let go of the, you know what I mean? I’m still like same time, like holding on to, you know, um, just because of, uh, yeah, it’s, uh, it’s, it’s daunting.
[00:25:33] It’s, uh, it’s scary. You know, when I, again, for someone who’s, uh, for an enigma, someone who’s, you know, in it, maintain, managed to remain an enigma for such a long time to, um, you know, to start to, uh, you know, debunk some of the, some of the mythology and, you know, I mean, I don’t know if it’s, if it’s that as much as, uh, you know, peeling back layers of, uh, of, of the, of the onion.
[00:25:59] Maiysha Kai: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I don’t think, don’t get me wrong. I don’t think any of us are going to be able to walk away from this being like, no, I know how he does what he does. You know, there’s still a lot of magic kind of in the ether of this book, but, um, that is, that is the through line. I mean, you know, Cassie, this, this incredible woman who instilled so much of you within the short span of your time together.
[00:26:21] Um, Is is a huge through line in this book. And I think, you know, one that all of us, regardless of our relationships with our parents can really connect to the, uh, the imperfections, the, um, the trauma that parents inevitably visit on their children, no matter how. Good or virtuous. They may be. Um, it’s, it’s a love story for the ages.
[00:26:45] It really is. And, and I hope that you’re proud of telling it. Um, there was another love story in this book that I don’t think, that I don’t think people have, uh, really gotten to dig into, but also obviously is probably more in line with the memoir. They thought they might You know, be picking up. Um, and that is your love story with, you know, your chosen brother, Amir Thompson, who, you know, obviously, we can’t talk about The Roots crew without talking about the two of you.
[00:27:12] And there’s a real vulnerability in that retelling of, you know, how you met, you know, your friendship, the, the fact that friendships grow and evolve and change and morph and, you know, expand and contract over time.
[00:27:28] Black Thought: We offered a necessary level of escapism to one another. I was deep in the world of hip hop and rap.
[00:27:35] Crack was hitting right on my front step, and then deep in my mother’s veins. I was a part of all of it. There was no keeping the outside outside. It was my family. It was in my blood and my DNA, and totally inescapable, even as many in our tribe did their best to shield me. And for Amir, a kid locked in a basement with a drum kit and jazz on vinyl, I think that was exciting.
[00:27:57] But I looked at his situation, as extreme as it was, with some envy. He was coming from what appeared to be a stable household. A sister and had two parents. Both his parents lived in a crib, and they were even in a band together, performing shows on the weekend. I felt like, wait, your mom and dad live here?
[00:28:13] Y’all got a car? Yo, I mean, yo, you got it made.
[00:28:16] Maiysha Kai: Has he read the book? And did this open new portals, I guess, for you all as, I mean, you know, And so, in many ways, You know, one of your life partners in a weird way at this point.
[00:28:28] Black Thought: You know, I don’t know if I’m not sure if he’s read the book. I know he has it. Um, I know he’s supported me throughout this journey.
[00:28:38] Um, but you know, oddly enough, I’m going to be on his podcast, um, as a guest and, um, I’m going to ask him if he’s, if he’s read it, but yeah, you know, there is definitely, uh, that’s another, you know, love story dynamic that you sort of see. And the, uh, in, in the upcycle self is, is his in line in our brotherhood.
[00:29:00] And, um, you know, um, I mean, at its core, this story is about, you know, the ways in which we deal with grief and loss and, you know, cope with trauma and that whole thing. Um, I think it’s about that as much as it’s about, you know, The Roots in the, in the creative process. If not more, but, and I think, you know, because of that, um, there is a certain, uh, amount of vulnerability and, you know, just nuance.
[00:29:34] It’s a, it’s a delicate story. Um, it’s, you know, it’s sensitive information. So, um, I had to treat it as such.
[00:29:43] Maiysha Kai: And that really comes through. And I think. For me as a reader and somebody who reads a lot of books, um, that was part of what made it so powerful. It’s interesting, like those words, the juxtaposition of those words going back to wordplay that, you know, delicate and nuanced, um, and sensitive, but that to me is like the power actually of the narrative and what I think about it in terms of how it offers.
[00:30:08] Every reader, but I would venture to say, especially Black men, um, a place to kind of process those feelings, a place to kind of process those relationships and speak on them. Honestly, um, was that one of your intentions or is that just a kind of a happy side effect of what happens here?
[00:30:29] Black Thought: No, that was absolutely one of my intentions.
[00:30:32] You know, that was absolutely one of my intentions. I think that was the, that’s the foundation from which, um, this story and its entirety sort of, uh, evolved, you know, um, it almost, there were, you know, points at which during the process, uh, It felt like we were working on, um, a self-help, a self-help book of sorts, you know?
[00:30:54] Um, but yeah. Yeah, that’s definitely, uh, that’s, that’s, that, that, that was the, the, the initial seed.
[00:31:00] Maiysha Kai: So, you know, we know you as obviously prolific songwriter and lyricist and, uh, I mean, you’ve written everything from obviously hit singles to Broadway shows now a book. Um, I’m curious to know, uh. Hey, what else are you, are you wanting to do?
[00:31:23] Um, and, and also what inspires you now? Like we know you, you grew up reading encyclopedias, but what else do you read? What do you love to read? I ask this question on every show and I love to know what our writers
[00:31:35] Black Thought: read. Interesting. You know, um, what comes next for me is, uh, you know, I’m just going to continue to embrace.
[00:31:46] The tools that, um, make themselves available to us as artists, right? All this technology, um, AI. Mm-Hmm. , uh, you know, VR. Um, I think the possibilities, you know, continue to become so expansive that there’s no, I mean, for me personally, I mean, you know, just for me personally, I don’t know that, uh, I’ll ever stop telling my story because I think they’re going to, you know, there’s going to continue to evolve, you know, all these different ways in which to tell a story more effectively and to connect with, you know, more people with the same, you know, coming from the same place. So, um, yeah, yeah. I forget. I don’t even know what your last question.
[00:32:34] Maiysha Kai: Who do you read? Who do you read when you when you want inspiration? Well, I want to know, yeah, who do you read?
[00:32:40] Black Thought: You know, um, um, when I want inspiration, um, I read, you know, any of the, the folks from, uh, Nicaraguan manor, you know, the Zora Neale Hurstons and, you know, uh, uh,
[00:32:54] Langston hughes and stuff like that.
[00:32:58] Um, for, it’s wild. And this, uh, like part of part of my relationship with the publisher, um, is, is attributable to, um, a dynamic between Ta Nehisi Coates and myself. You know, where we speak to one another, you know, at different points, you know, uh, of the process when we’re working on a thing and he told me at one point, wow, you know, like what I do is, um, is really informed by your writing, by my writing style, um, as, as an artist, um, and it was wild because at, like, by then it was already full circle in that his writing was inspiring mine.
[00:33:42] So, um. But yeah, one of the, you know, the way I became connected to one world and Chris Jackson and, you know, uh, Random House and that whole, um, you know, situation is through the coach through Ta Nehisi, you know, so, um, he’s, he definitely remains an inspiration. But yeah, I don’t know. I read, I read all sorts of stuff, man.
[00:34:04] What is that?
[00:34:06] This is, I’m currently reading. Cows, Pigs, Wars, and Witches, the Riddles of Culture by Marvin Harris. Oh my. He’s one of America’s leading anthropologists. Okay. And it’s about solutions to the perplexing question of why people behave the way they do, which is. That’s, that’s dope to me. You know, I, um, I’m heavy into the 30 for 30 of it all into the Ken Burns style of, of documentarianism.
[00:34:34] That’s another thing that also comes next. What, you know, we have sort of cooking up is 215, our TV and film production company, and, um, you know, uh, looking forward to my directorial debut and looking forward to, uh, you know, producing and executive producing, um, you know, more, joints. You know what I’m saying, is continue to tell our stories in different ways and remain, um, you know, gatekeepers in that way.
[00:35:02] So.
[00:35:02] Maiysha Kai: You were just talking about, uh, this incredible collective of writers and the Harlem Renaissance. And I couldn’t help but sit there and think to myself, I was like, but this is also what The Roots crew has done so many artists that we know that we love, that we admire, that we’ve discovered, um, have really, you all in many ways have been that glue, you know, in the same way that, you know, we might talk about a dark tower, you know, back in the Harlem Renaissance.
[00:35:31] It’s like, there’s like, none of it surprises me at this point when I, you know, when you were talking about, you know, old heads coming up and being comfortable, new talents, you’ve made them comfortable. Um, so I think, you know, we were talking about your legacy in the world of hip hop, but there is also this legacy in terms of this preservation.
[00:35:51] And I think promotion of Black creativity and Black culture. Um, and I personally want to thank you for it, but I also just want to hear. How you feel about that at this point, like if that’s been, um, just organic, if it’s just, if it’s the intention, if it’s the mission, if it’s, this is, this is just what you do, you know?
[00:36:13] Black Thought: Yeah, I think it’s both.
[00:36:14] I think it’s both, um, intentional and organic. And I think, um, you know, just a certain appreciation for the arts and for you know, culture and, you know, the culture, this culture, our culture, um, is something that is very Philadelphia. Philadelphia is a city that is, is no one thing. It’s more a place that people wind up than a destination.
[00:36:38] And those accidental arrivals come together to create a layered intersection of histories, memories, and heritages. Learning to navigate its subtle lessons and boundaries is a rite of passage in and of itself. Even though Mount Airy held my roots, South Philly was my molding, for better and for worse. In West Philly or North, stratification of the races could happen more easily.
[00:37:00] Less interaction needed to take place in blocks, less crowded, less blended. But off the river, next to the ports, attracting both the crooks and hard hustlers and tireless workers alike, South Philadelphia was Philly in its purest form. You know? Um, and, you know, speaking to the whole Harlem Renaissance, you know, of our own, of it all, um, and sort of making, you know, a way where there was none and creating a platform where there was none.
[00:37:30] Um, that’s what we did, you know, in the early nineties, uh, you know, with the scene in Philadelphia and, you know, our jam sessions that evolved into, uh, the Black lily. Um, but yeah, I think the book is, I think in that the, the book is, um, just as much, um, a love letter, a love story and observation of the relationship, um, between Philadelphia and myself as a Philadelphian, you know, and how, um, it’s, uh, it’s, it’s, I mean, it’s almost love hate, you know, it’s, uh, I talk about, um, And I don’t, I don’t know how much I get into into this in the book, but, you know, sometimes when I tell my students, I might talk about how, um, certain things are like an additional element, right?
[00:38:19] Philadelphia is like an element in that way, like, to be respected in the same way that we respect fire or the ocean. You know what I mean? It’s like, you know, that that’s that that which gives us life. You know what I’m saying? But that in an instant, um, can also take it away, you know? Um, yeah. And that’s, that’s, that’s another, it’s, it’s my mother and my story, you know, love story, it’s a mirror and my love story, it’s my city and my love story, um, and it’s about self discovery.
[00:38:51] Maiysha Kai: You know, as a, as a Chicagoan, I, I deeply relate and I actually found myself the whole time being like, God, these, these are like two parallel universes, like I would, I would describe my hometown the same way. Um, listen, I cannot thank you enough for this book. Um, I think. Fans of The Roots, but fans of Black creativity, fans of yours are going to love this.
[00:39:16] If you all have not yet, you Writing Black viewers out there and, and listeners, uh, The Upcycled Self, a memoir on the art of becoming who we are is a must have for yourselves. It’s on mine. It should be on yours. Gift it. All that good stuff. And we will be staying tuned to see what Tariq Trotter has coming next.
[00:39:35] But in the meantime, thank you so much for joining us today for this episode of Writing Black. It was so special to me personally, and I’m sure to a lot of our listeners.
[00:39:45] Black Thought: Thank you so much for a lovely conversation. Thank you. Thanks for having me.
[00:39:53] Maiysha Kai: Hey, it’s your girl, Maisha. And I just had an incredible conversation with Tariq Trotter of the legendary Roots crew. And, you know, his memoir, The Upcycled Self, a memoir on the art of becoming who we are, is one of my top reads for this, this season. It is in this year in general, it is. It’s a phenomenally beautiful work and, uh, it is deservedly a bestseller.
[00:40:18] But there are a few other memoirs that came up in the last year that I do think you should dig into that for me had some really incredible parallels with both Tariq’s story and just the story of like hip hop culture, Gen Xers like myself, you know, it’s, it’s the story of a generation really. Um, now, GZ.
[00:40:37] I. Yeah. Jeezy’s not, okay, he’s not a Gen Xer. However, however, um, his book, Adversity for Sale, um, this is also a memoir that’s, Adversity for Sale, you gotta believe, you know, it has a lot of the similar elements to, uh, Tariq’s book in terms of being kind of equal parts memoir and self help and really, uh, inspirational, I guess I would say, told in a totally different tone.
[00:41:04] Um, but there are some revelations in here. And I think anybody who’s loved his music or just curious about. Yet another enigma in our midst. This is a good one to dig into. Now this next one you may have seen or hear on Writing Black, you know, and listen to our conversation together. It was one of my favorite conversations.
[00:41:21] Um, since we launched the podcast, just simply because again, another enigma pulling back the curtain, uh, a lot got lost in the headlines, but if you can get past those. Worthy was a really great memoir. It’s a great read. You will not be able to put it down, and it won’t be because of the juicy bits.
[00:41:38] There’s some real deep vulnerability, uh, and transparency in here. Uh, again, a lot of, uh, parallels between this narrative and, um, Tariq Trotter’s narrative. And, uh, again, you know, look past the headlines to the humanity. I think this is a worthy read. And those are my recommended reads for this week, we hope you will come back and enjoy more Writing Black with us and catch up on all the old episodes on theGrio Black Podcast Network.
[00:42:07] We will see you next time. Thanks so much for joining us for this week’s episode of Writing Black. As always, you can find us on theGrio app or wherever you find your podcasts.
[00:42:30] theGrio: I’m political scientist, author and professor, Dr. Christina Greer, and I’m host of the Blackest questions on theGrio Black podcast network. This person invented ranch dressing around 1950. Who are they? I have no idea. This all began as an exclusive Black History Trivia Party at my home in Harlem with family and friends.
[00:42:50] And they got so popular, it seemed only right to share the fun with our griot listeners. Each week, we invite a familiar face on the podcast to play. What was the name of the person who was an enslaved chief cook for George Washington and later ran away to freedom? In 1868. This university was the first in the country to open a medical school that welcomed medical students of all races, genders, and social classes.
[00:43:16] What university was it? No, this is why I like doing stuff with you, because I leave educated. I was not taught this in Alabama public schools. Question number three, you ready? Yes. Okay. Let me try to redeem myself. How did we go from Kwanzaa to, like, these obscure They’re not sport, darling. Like the New York Times crossword from a Monday to a Saturday.
[00:43:38] Right or wrong. Because all we care about is the journey and having some fun while we do it. I’m excited and also a little nervous. Oh, listen, no need to be nervous. And as I tell all of my guests, this is an opportunity for us to educate ourselves because Black history is American history. So we’re just going to have some fun.
[00:43:55] Listen, some people get zero out of five, some people get five out of five. It doesn’t matter. We’re just going to be on a little intellectual journey together. LaToya Kintrow. That’s right. Mayor LaToya Cantrell. Hercules Posey. Mmm! Born in 1754, and he was a member of the Mount Vernon slave community, widely admired for his culinary skills.
[00:44:13] I’m going to guess Afropunk. Close! It’s Afro Nation. So last year, according to my research, it’s Samuel Wilson, a. k. a. Falcon. Wrong. Wrong. I, I am, I am disputing this. I’m
[00:44:30] very, very, very, very 99. 9999 sure that it is representative John Lewis who is also from the state of Alabama. That lets you know, Christina, we got some goodness come out of Alabama.
[00:44:42] There is something in the water in Alabama and you are absolutely correct. Oh, here they come.
[00:44:47] Close. Oh, wait. Uh, the harder they fall? That’s right. I’m one of those people that, that just changes one word. I mean, I know who’s talking too well. I just don’t know nothing today. It’s okay. I’m gonna pour myself a little water while you tell me the answer.
[00:44:59] The answer is Seneca Village, which began in 1825 with the purchase of land by a trustee of the A. M. E. Zion Church. You know why games like this make me nervous? I don’t know if I know enough Black. Do I know enough? How Black am I? Oh, my Lord, they, they gonna, we gonna find out in public.
